Who would like to go with me for some shawarma? on me.

Geshertzarmeod, i uh.... found your thread. I'd like to return it to you. It was under my seat on the bus and i saw your name on the bottom.
Please step in and enlighten all with your words of justice and despair

Thank you Thank you
You know a funny thing happened to me on the way to GYE...
I got run over by an argument! ;D

So Im not really sure if Im totally depressed and have given up, or if I actually came to realize that there is nothing that I can do to change the situation, so I gave it over to HKBH. I would love to believe the latter, but in all honesty its probably the former. I've given it over to HKBH b4, or at least I thought I did, and it didnt feel quite the same. What does it mean? dunno. But I find it hard to believe that I achieved the ideal without really working on it. So we gotta work on it.

I think I just realized something....
I mean this is BIG
REALLY BIG
Dov and DovinIsrael are 2 different people!!
I have to go back now to all the threads that I've read and put everything back into perspective!
What a great distraction from having to deal with my issues!
thanks

ATTA BOY!!!

Dear "Tzaddik90",

How could I criticize anything you wrote that is your own experience? And why would I criticize anything you wrote anyway - cuz I think I see things just as you described them!

It's great to read that you had a shaychus to the great yid and tzaddik, R' Tzvi-Meyer! I only hope you have maintained some kesher with him still. We took an apt in EY for a week just so that I could daven with him for a week and spend a Shabbos with him three summers ago (Parshas Bolok). There is nothing like it and I am aching to go back to him soon, be"H.

The psychology thing with the chachomim over there was fascinating, and I must share with you that I had a shaychus with Rav Fischel E., zt"l, in the yeshivah you mentioned, once upon a time.

Hatzlocha with everything. Recovery opens the door as long as it is one day at a time and as long as we never see ourselves as having 'made it': Pischu li sha'arei tzedek - open the doors for me, the tzaddik says. For he always sees himself standing just at the doorway and asking to come in. He never 'arrives'.

Once we have arrived, there is really nothing left to do but start telling everybody how wrong they are and how it needs to be done, rather than sharing and just being. That is the meaning that I find in the program concept of 'once an addict always an addict' - though I do not like 'rules' and firmly believe that some people might truly be healed and outgrow their addiction completely - could be, I have no idea....but not me. I choose not to believe it for me as of today. I may change in the future if I believe that Hashem makes it clear to me that I am 'healed'. In the meantime I prefer to see myself as a sweet, lowly addict in recovery and I know that Hashem is very happy that I am sober today and thinking about Him and sanity most of the time rather than about shtuyot. My life is totally different than it was before sobriety - which took time and patience, and more time and patience. And I have no patience and am always out of time! Miracle again.

That, I believe is one reason I have been for a while, now, and am b"H sober so far today. I still desperately need Him, just as the newbie who just walked into his first meeting does.

I am still as powerless as ever over lust, and that's why I do not use it!

:-* !

More power to you, brother. And shwarma in Flatbush.

tzadik90, that was an awesome piece you put together, shkoyach

i draw two conclusions from it, please correct me if i'm wrong
1. the harmony of torah and psychology can be best perceived on Egged busses near Ramat Shlomo
2. stay away from walruses

now, please pass the shwarma

@gesher..

dov vs dov in israel

its easy..

DOV = Techno, psycho, mind boggling babble

Dov in Israel = Babbling mind bubbling boggly gook. (also usually signs off as Dov.ii to avoid confusion )

hope that helps.

(on the Tues call - tonight, we will be taking a closer look at DESPAIR... send me an email, dovinisrael@gmail.com, I'll send you the Babbling mind bubbling boggly gooky, material)

Guys, there are a lot of questions here, and I sense that some of them are ernest. But I'm beginning to feel a little bad for gesher cause we totally hijacked his tread. Hence, if any of you would like to know why Psychology doesn't fit in with jewish hashkafas, Ill be happy to address that in a different thread.

I just want to bring up one on-topic point: ultimately, there is no more complete method in the world to be able to confidently answer the phone when creditors call with out even a hint of fear other than that of the CH. NO. MORE COMPLETE. WAY. (except for death, maybe)

a. dose anyone have something better?
b. considering that debt/emuna is NOT an addiction (yes you can get in to debt from bad habits/depression/addictions/etc. but debt ITSELF is not an addiction), why are you guys so against CH?

David/Rage wrote on 01 Mar 2011 23:13:


Wikipedia feels that "Psychology is the science of mind and behavior" (emphasis mine). Subtle wording, but huge difference.
If you open a thread on the subject, I will attempt to convey my thoughts and feelings on the matter.

I am just reading this thread now for the 1st time. Good thing I didn't see it when the action was hot, I don't know if I would have been able to avoid adding in my two cents....


I do have one issue which I haven't seen made by anyone yet:

We are not comparing apples to apples!    If the "Mussar" approach were tried with the same zeal that we go about the 12 Steps maybe we would've found success??

• If we just sat back and perused the Mussar Seforim, did we expect it to change our lives?


• Did we try going to a Beis Hamussar as often as we go to the SA Rooms?


• Did we delve into Mussar Seforim with the same depth & reverence with which we dissect the wording of the Big Book & the 12 & 12?


• Did we have a Rebbi to whom we surrendered the way we do with a Sponsor in SA?


• Someone who's word was followed without 'filtering' it in our own minds first?


• Have we made a "Reaching out" phone call to a chavrusa when we felt triggered?


• Did we do a 4th Step style cheshbon hanefesh? A 9th Step Amends?

I forgot to mention something!

If we find that Mussar didn't work, it is because we weren't 'willing' to allow it to work!

All we need is "a sincere desire to stop lusting"!!!

If we didn't stop, that is a siman that our desire is still not REALLY sincere.......      ;D

One little man's feelings about these questions, in blue:

Yosef Hatzadik wrote on 01 Mar 2011 23:32:


I hope we make a real useful peace here. it seems like you are trying to and I thank you, Yosef Hatzadik.

So, are you agreeing that we do not REALLY have to work the 12 Steps Program; We just have to WORK a Program!?!

If, instead of using the 12 Step Program & having guys like Dr. Rabbi Twersky tell us that it 'fits' with the Torah, we were to WORK the Mussar Approach we might attain the SAME level of Recovery which you are at?  (Did you notice that I stressed WORK?)