ABOUT TORAH AND PSYCHOLOGY, SCROLL DOWN TO WHERE YOU SEE A LINE
DEAR READERS-THIS POST IS VERY LONG/HOWEVER IT'S WORTH READING/IT CONTAINS SECRET AND SENSITIVE INFO. THAT IS VALUABLE COMMODITY/YOU'LL PROBABLY GAIN FROM IT IMP. INFO., WHICH IS THEREFOR WHY I AM asking u to read IT-STARTING FROM 4a the rest is just for rebO
Dear Reb O,
There is something u said that is driving me mad and i'd like to post this is reply to get it outa my head.
1) You first mentioned your view about therapy. Then i replied about my own view on therapy. I mentioned it is the view of many gedolim here in Ey. You rightfully responded how anyone can manifacture gedolim, who vary from women at the wall to net' karta, our friends in iran.
2)Before i reply, let me make a point-when u posted ur reply, how were u so sure that i am not just like you in judaism and that afeelu hachi i know something that u dont, by finding things like gye and 12 steps? I mean, how, reb o, can u be so sure. Also, how can u be so sure in your views when it says aizehu chacham halomed MIKUL ADAM, and im yaish chachmah bagoim ta'amin? wouldnt it be a little naive to jump the gun, assume you know better than the majority here, and then keep on being so assertive?
I am never so sure in life-just because s/one claims that a petek fell from the sky telling us all to say nach nach nachman doesnt mean that i have to follow that view-yet at the same time i am not stupid enough to say that he's wrong. How can i prove he's wrong? And maybe i can learn from other traits of his without needing to chant the petek. Why have the assertive, super confident all knowing air to yourself?
3) I write this as a friend, to give u a chance to take a step back and say "that's a good point tzaddik90, i dont have to agree with any of you vile and despicable addicts, but you guys gave me what to mull over on my way to the bais medrash".
Often, we put ourselves in a corner and then can't get out when we need to. This is why Rashi al hat' in biraishis says Hshem asked ADAm where he is, so as not to excite and catch him in his embarrasing position and almost force Adam to lie.
On the bus yesterday (in ramat shlomo fyi) a guy yelled at the driver for not stopping at the tachana and opening the door. The driver yells back "what- they didnt teach u in school to ring the bell when you wanna get off?" The passenger was embarrased by the driver's counter insult and said "well, the ringer didnt work". Driver-"im sure it didnt work, the one time YOU ring, it doesnt work-interesting". The main alighted the bus, red and embarrassed by the whole thing.
I dont want you to be in this position so make sure you leave yourself some room to back out if you decide you want to think about what wer'e saying.
4)Now, as far as Torah and psychology and the view in Ey of the gedolim. This really struck a cord in me, you'll see why it affected me so much in a second.
A]I do not run with the women at the wall
I HAVE run with the gedolim you have pictures of in your dining room.
Iv'e had letter correspondences with R chaim Kanievsky, i was once honored by a talmid chacham you know to raise money for something secretive for one of the gedolei hador mamesh in the "olam hayeshivos", a talmid of the brisker rav. Ive been a messenger boy for the ga'avad of Yerushalayim, R' tzvi meir silverberg, A rav so big in chinuch you probably have all his books on your shelf, R asher weiss. Ive eaten by R kanievsky's house, stayed by the vihznitzer bnei brak's shamash and honored at the tish (& im not even wealthy), been messenger boy between a rebbi in the mir that you probably had and a famous talmid chacham, i was told sensitive things by R yakov hillel and i know some regarding r yakov hillel. Ive had shmoozes with R shmuel birnbaum obm just like you, and ive written one short sefer on the shulchan aruch orach chaim and one on minchas chinuch, neither of which are very good or longer in print. have semicha just like you from R Z N goldberg in Ey. and i learned In r shmuel aurbach's kabbalah yeshiva for almost 8 months, till i decided im not ra'uy.
AND WITHOUT GYE ID BE ON THE STREETS, PROB. COLLECTING MONEY IN A (BLACK) HAT
THEYVE DONE MORE FOR ME THAN MEKUBALIM WHOVE READ MY TZELEM, THAT U ADORE AND TALK ABOUT CLOSE TO LAG BI'OMER
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B]-Point-i was selected by the gedolim i mentioned and one that i didnt to be a frum therapist. Im a regular kollel dude with an orange beard like you,and i never planned getting a job or being a therapist. The gedolim that i work for do love psychology, the problem is either that the therapists are not real bnei torah, or they dont use the torah for therapy as well ,like u push, or they use some methods within therapy that are not torahdik bec. its more effective, etc.
C}-The gedolim i know here are privately looking for kolell guys who are finishing shas shulchan aruch and sucking them out of kolel and into this field-they said to me this is because
now they are trying to spearhead the therapy world with real talmidei chachamim, and by infiltrating it, they will
D)-influence the ppl who say therapy is not torah dik to come to appreciate therapy.
E]-make therapy more torah based, employing the refuah of psychology while using the torah and mussar sfarim to replace old man frued's zany psychological theories. The way one gadol told me-psychology has two parts-refuah, and theories. We want you to use the refuah and chuck the theories".
F)-It is ppl who dont agree with me that destroy ppl-the mashgichim who dont chap and are against therapy tell bochurim with ocd to play more basketball, as if it'll help. If id make a post of stroies how some ill-informed rabbanim got people to commit suicide etc, you'd never want to be frum again, but then if id tell you stories of the rabbanim and gedolim i work for who are informed, youd want to put your'e kippah right back on.
G)-Trust me, what gedolim tell most people in public is not nec. what they hold in private, or for the individual. I know of a psak of R elyashiv and of R sheinberg that wld make your mind melt. Especially in the realm of mental health, they say things to practitioners privately that you'd never understand until Iyh you become a gadol yourself. Ive been involved for a long time, as a patient, and a counselor, trust me on this one.
H)-Now, for my final thrust (the first two paragraphs were parrys):
If you dont yet chap how gye or therapy can offer something that the torah doesnt, like RAGE and ME3 claim, let me explain.
As iv'e seen in the gye literature, the things an SA group or twelve steps preach are the very axioms of being a human being. Their chachmah is about becoming a human and not a biheima. A person that loses his self control or bechira in your mussar shpach is a biheima. SA is not teaching the deeper insights the Torah has, the GOdly wisdom.. They teach us how to stop acting like animals who try to procreate from images of attractive wallruses on a pc screen. THAT IS MAMESH A BIHEIMA.
And when u learn enuff torah, you find it all inside. It was never compiled however into a mesechta bec. most ppl in most doros were not animals like i am. Trust me, i just finished tanna dbei eliyahu and im halfway through pirkei drebbi elazar-when i see something from a handbook or on the forum, i write in my gilyon GYE and more on. One day maybe ill compile them.
Its all there, hafuch bah... .
Also, most ppl dont chap that when it says "hafuch bah..." it also means that while everything is in the TORAH, it may be milubash in SOD or remez, and the torah is not only limited to bava metziah like some ppl think. Therefore, in my drunken escapades through kabalah sfarim, ive seen a ton of therapy chachmah. THere is even a psychology book in kabbala called sefer habris by a protege of R chaim volozhin. You cld buy it at eichlers, or mannys, whatever. Biegeleisen for sure has it. On 16th ave. i think. kabalah is all about how middis effect the mind, different states of conciousness, and refuah. I know three mekubalim, who are psychologists as well. If u knew who one of them was your'e jaw would drop.
Thank you. My bus is now almost at yeshiva, so im gonna wish you all a godd yor.
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