Hey there,

does anyone have trouble just talking to girls, which i enjoy doing?  right now i have an issue with an attractive teenage Jewish girl who actually babysits for us.  i can't seem to get her out of my mind.  i just want to talk to her as i have done in the past.  i do talk to my wife, but my yetzer hara wants to keep talking to her.  any tips for helping me avoid her online and in person? 

thanks,
baruch

Hi,

I applaud your courage to ask this question. That means you are a "Ba Letaher" and Hashem will help you if you seek the truth.

I ask you to take a look at the following page of our FAQ. Even though that case deals with someone who was infatuated by someone else's wife, I think the answers there are appropriate to you too in large part, being that you are also married.

My dear Yid, do your self a big favor and picture this girl as "fire". The Yetzer Hara tells you today that "it's just e-mailing" or "it's just talking"... but as our Sages have said; "Today the Yetzer Hara tells you to do something small, and tomorrow he gets you to be oved avodah zara"... Stay as far away as you can from falling into a deep pit that can destroy your life, in this world and the next.

Baruch,

  I use to remember what it was like to have babysitters in our house. Every time a new one was due to come, I would decide that I would NOT even look at her to see if she was attractive etc. I was NEVER  successful!
  Here is my advice to you:
      I personally know of a well known Torah family, (of fame), and they did the "chessed", of allowing their young Bais Yakov daughter, to help out with another family, (also of fame), while the mother was out of commision and not in the house, the father was given assistance each evening/day (I don't know all of the details), but I knew both families, and after some time had passed, I was curious why the father divorced his wife, and then married this very young Bais Yakov girl, (about 18 years younger than him.) And, I couldn't understand why this respected family would have their daughter marry this older man with several children.
  Well.....while the young girl was helping out in their house, and the mother was not around, he couldn't control himself with this young girl, and....he got her pregnant!  So, the wife comes home, finds out their babysitter is pregnant by her loving husband of many years, which was of course very painful and hurtful to this women. I will leave out some other details, but in the end he divorced this women, and married the young pregnant babysitter. Both families went through tremendous embarassment, the home of one family was broken up, the kids were taken away. There were court hearings and terrible battles on who would get the kids. Some of the children were tought to hate the "other" parent etc, and this young Bais Yakov girl, who had her entire life ahead of her, in a moment of lust, lost her zivug, lost a beautiful wedding with the picture album to last a lifetime, and was forced to marry a man much older than her. Do you get the picture?
  Now, there is no way you can continue in this manner unless you are willing to go through this scenario above.

Here is my advice:

  The Baal Shomer Emunim zt"l wrote in his sefer Taharas Hakodesh, that as soon as an improper thought enters your mind, you must immediately push it out, "Im Shnei HaYadayim", (with BOTH hands). i.e. one hand is not enough. He has to be eliminated immediately. Each mili second that he is allowed to remain in our minds, is TOO long! So, we see that the battle with the yetzer begins in the very beginning. At the start. When we have allowed him to already exist within in us, it is already too late. As we here all see. If we don't beat him in the beginning, when he starts up with us, then we will not be able to in the end for he is already much too strong for us. Each moment he gains more and more strength.
  You must either tell your wife that "we need to get a new babysitter", and the embarassemnt of telling your wife will be an incredible tikkun for you. Of cours if your wife will go crazy when she hears about this, then this is not an option. So, you have no choice, (unless you want to turn out like the story above), other than to leave the house everytime the babysitter is due to come. You will have to find somewhere to go, to learn or whatever it is you are doing. You must get out of the house. You have made yourself a case similiar to one leaving his computer on with porn on the screen. Will he never glance at it? Impossible. You must take the advice of the Baal Shomer Emunim, and start this battle "from the beginning". Get it back to the beginning stage, and leave the battle field, i.e your house. Obviously there will be no more email writing etc.
  When I think about this man, I feel bad for him. I can't blame him because I know that if I were in his position, I might not have done any better. But, when I go over the details, and all of the pain...we all know that it was never worth it. But, still the yetzer has the power to blind us from these details. Therefore, our only true chance lies when we beat him at the start, before we get so deep into the tayvah.

Baruch, there is an axiom in nature which says, "What you resist, persists."  If you keep trying to push
her out of your mind, she will persist. I know because I have a love addiction and thought about a business
acquaintance for over 2 years.  Finally, I accepted the fact that these thoughts came into my mind as natural, let
them pass and went about my business, until now they don't rear their ugly head.  Well, maybe once or twice a year.

In the frum world, especially today, we are separated from girls at an early age, as if they are EVIL or something.
Don't talk to them, don't look at them.  I grew up in a mixed Jewish High School in a small town (outside of NY) and
we all managed to get married, raise frum kids and lead fruitful lives. So you may have grown up with this stigma against girls.  Our high school is not mixed anymore and the boys and girls somehow manage to talk to each other.

Girls are not the enemy, the yetzer harah is the enemy.  Please remember that.  Accept it as the Yetzer Harah attempting to trick you.  I firmly disagree with "me" about telling your wife.  You haven't done anything wrong, if that's all you've done is looked or even talked.  But you can tell your wife, that this girl is too "triggering" for you, that you think about her too much and PLEASE help you by getting another babysitter, or like "me" said, leave when she's home.  You have to set boundaries, just like we set boundaries in Yiddishkeit so we don't do aveiros.

Elya,

Actually we are both in agreement on one point.  When I gave advice to  Baruch to "tell his wife", it was certainly not as a means of  self punishment. It was meant to divulge the secret to her so that she will then come to his aid. He needs her to be on his side, and of course she is the one who chooses the babysitters.  We must not ignore the fact that this can be very embarrasing to spill the beans to one's wife, to divulge one's weaknesses. So, I added, that if he believes that he CAN do this without his wife loosing control, then he should do so, and the embarassment he may feel  will and can serve as a tikkun in itself.
  On the second point that Boruch is doing nothing wrong by speaking to the babysitter:  I disagree.  Boruch mentioned that he is speaking to the babysitter because of infatuation,and it sounds to me like sexual attraction. He mentioned that he is even communicating with her via the computer. This is completely forbidden and will lead to disaster. He looks forward to her visits in the home, and speaking with her. These are clear signs of lust, and they do not belong.  I wish Boruch all of the success to make the break away. The sooner the better.

Boruch: Your response was fabulous, on the point, and in my humble opinion, Ratzon Hashem. Thank you.
Elya: I understand your position, being that you survived through your mixed schooling. However, although girls are most definitely not evil, in their own right, they are the tools of the enemy (Yetzer Hora)until a boy is of the age (to date for the purpose of marriage). R. Dovid Orlofsky Shlita says it beautifully as follows: 'Do you think that when a boy holds a girls hand he thinks to himself, "Ahh...Completion." Definitely not.' The goal, whether consious or subconsious, is to move further and further and further... Even if the further may never actually happen, that is not the point. As always, daas torah knew and know what they are doing by keeping seperate schools for boys and girls.

Please note that my response is just my point of view and not meant to judge or offend you or anyone from any background chas vishalom.

Note: Every time I get onto this sight I get a chill at how incredibly full of chizuk it is. Thanks to everyone for "sharing" as they call it and of course to "Guard ur eyes".

Chasdei Avos

Dear Chasdei Avos,

You did not offend me.  I know very well both sides of the story.  I live in a small
city out of town and my wife and I raised 3 beautiful kids who are all Tznua, married
themselves and are teaching their kids the same. I guess the point goes back to
'Intention" on Baruch's part.  The problem is for me is that sometimes I don't know
if its the Yetzer Horah (my addiction) or the real me. But I'm workin' on that.

Good to have you here.

A

Elya K,

Many times when things seem to be going wrong we are not sure how to read the "test" from heaven.There are two ways to interpret it. 1) The Yetzer hara is trying to stop you, and obviously the thing you are having difficulty doing is a good thing. 2) Hashem is trying to stop you, and obviously the thing you are having difficulty doing is a bad thing.

The Chofetz Chaim used to ask: "So how is a person supposed to know how to interpret the test?

He answered: A person's heart has to be trained to know how to read these signs, and it isn't an easy task. Not easy, but one that can be done!

Nobody said that our struggle is easy. Quite the contrary. To someone who hasnt had our struggles, he/she can't fathom what our test is all about!

But, when we overcome and pass hashem's tests, the rewards are boundless and indescribable!

Chazak V'Ematz!

The Sefer Chassidim, in around chap. 495 and after, maybe some chapters before that one also, talks about why men love various women, obviously not married to him, and other things on the subject.

It happens. We are human. The thing is not to act on it. Usually we get over it if we are not faced with that person on a steady basis. Right?

I disagree. I think he should test himself and speak to this girl in order to conquer the lust he feels. By avoiding her and just running away, he is admitting that he is weak and his will power (remember that keter which means "pure will" is the highest sephira, and is something that we all must aspire to) needs to be able to conquer it. What if he has a coworker that is attractive, or a boss that is attractive, is he expected to run away at every turn? What if you are in line at the grocery store and the girl there is attractive and you want to speak to her. You going to also run away then? That is no way to live and it becomes impossible to conduct a normal life with this attitude of simply running away and leaving.

I know from my own addictions that it is impossible to simply run away from these things, and that sooner or later one must conquer the yetzer harah. The only way to conquer it is to meet it head on and teach yourself how to interact in normal society without doing things that are wrong.

The Torah Hashkafa on the matter is very clear. It's all spelled out in the Shulchan Oruch. It's also the only way that works. In societies that do it your way infidelity is extremely rampant. It's is very sad indeed that because of the reluctance to face reality, they don't teach this stuff in Bais Yaakov. That's how you got in to trouble yourself. I hope you get the help you need, and you succeed in joining the ranks of the real baalei teshuva, who can reach heights that no one else can.

debbie:

    We have only Chaza"l, who say that absolutely no one understands the yetzer harah, his tactic, and his unbelievable strength.....except for the one who created him.

Chaz'l say that we ourselves do NOT have the capability to conquer him without the help of Hashem.

Chaz'l have given us the perimaters in throughout  the Torah on what we are/are not supposed to do. For example: A man is not supposed to (if he can avoid it) to walk behind a women. In fact we see how severe it is when mentioned in the Torah. So, how does a man "beat" this yetzer harah?  He quickly passes the women, and puts her behind him. This is what we are instructed to do. Of course if his passing means he will just put himself behind more and more women, then this is a special situation that needs  to be dealt with. BUT, the passing her when possible is referred to by the Torah as "the normal way to live".

A man does NOT need to "test himself" Chas V'shalom, as the Yetzer Harah does all of the "testing" for us.

When we follow the Torah as taught to us by Chaz'l, then we will merit the heavenly assistance needed in order  to pass all of the "testing" that the Yetzer Harah does for us.

I have to agree with the above. Hashem tests us enough, we don't have to add to it ourselves by putting ourselves into new test situations.

My feeling is that  the Yetzer Hara is talking from within you when he says this: His plan is to get you to test yourself, because he knows you will fail!!! Only tests that Hashem gives us do we have the inner strength to conquer. There is no guarantee that we have the inner strength to conquer our self imposed tests!!!

May Hashem give us the  strength to pass the tests he gives us, and not look for more than we can handle.

My dear brothers and sisters on this forum: I love you all and I respect you all and each and every one of you has a tremendous impact on me and all the other readers here, even if we disagree with you. The fact that you are here trying to figure it out is  amazing in its own right!

Chazak V'Ematz!

In the area of Arayos, the Torah says "Lo Sikrivu Ligalos Erva" - do not come "close". No where else does the Torah use this lashon, not even with avodah Zara. And chaza"l were clear about this in many places, that "ain apotropus le'arayos" - there is no way to guarantee that one won't fall in these areas. The Gemarah tells many stories of the biggest Tanayim who thought that these desires were already far below them, and how the Satan came to them in the form of a beautiful woman, and that they would have been lost - if not for the Zechus of their Torah. With this Ta'avah, it CAN'T be fought head-on. If you try to fight it head on, you will lose. It is too strong. Instead, we need to use Guerrilla warfare. What do I mean by that? Please read what Rabbi Yitzchak Twerski once explained to me on this page and scroll down to the bottom where it says "Dr / Rabbi Yitzchak Twersky from Jerusalem sums up his approach in helping people deal with these difficult issues".

It is precisely this attitude that that leads some people to keep falling. And they fall far. They keep thinking: "What's the use of me trying to avoid certain places or situations or stimulations? If I can't fight it head-on, then I'm not ready to. And when I'm ready, I'll fight it head on". But it doesn't work like this in these areas. A person is never ready. The greatest Tzadikim couldn't fight this Ta'avah head on. See the story of R' Amram Chasid over here.

Those who feel weak, those are being tempted each day and are afraid of falling, they need to get help. They must cry out to those who are close to them, who really want to help them, "there's a fire!!" (as in the story of R' Amram Chasid). We need to open up about our problems to someone close to us, who we can trust. It's the secrecy and hiding that makes this so difficult to overcome. Once a person has opened up and is seeking help, it becomes much easier to deal with.

debbiesteinerwins wrote on 29 Oct 2008 16:48:


You are not supposed to challenge the yetzter hara. I think Dovid Hamelech tried it and lost.