I know that teshuva is a dirty word on this forum (it probably even gets zapped by R' Guard's bad word zapper). The focus here is realizing we are not bad people, but sick people getting healthier. There is also a very strong focus on the positive here and for many people focusing on the "bad" aspect will be counter productive.

I understand all of that, but I think with enough time since the last "fall" it is time to think about teshuva. Whatever the attitude and approach, ultimately I did a "bad" thing for which I need to do teshuva.

My problem is though, that I am scared to think/talk about teshuva, because I am afraid that implies that I think I am "cured" and "can't/won't" every do that stuff again. I feel that if I ever had such a complacent/self confident atitude I would be a lost cause...

Any thoughts??

tshuva's a bad word on these forums?

Pretty sure it does not imply that we think we're cured. 

Does the following help?

Yosef Hatzadik wrote on 22 Dec 2010 22:01:


Last week I met another Rav (The one who originally referred me to the great GYE site) & told him that on the same day which was very bad for me, I got feedback from a GYE Friend that he was in a struggle too. The main tool he utilized to resist the Yetzer Horah's overtures was the knowledge that he will have to tell me about it, to hold himself accountable to me.

The Rav replied that this is a great part of Teshuva on my own chatoim. Helping others with their nisyonos in these issues rectifies part of the spiritual damage we have wrought.

I think it is important to take into account a couple of things.....

1st of all, by obstaining you are actively engaged in teshuva. rabeinu yona says in the very beginign to shaarei teshuva that there are 2 stages for someone whose sin has become accustomed to him. First there is stopping and only later regret. regret in the begining will only fuel the y'h.

it is hard to say when enough is enough to start feeling healthy regret. and even then, what is called healthy regret is only that which will motivate you to improve for the future. depending on the severity of addiction/habbit/pattern and the intensity of teshvua you were looking to do, to weigh carefully so as to not look down upon yourself.

even real teshuva though implies that we are powerless over our actions. we open shmone esrei with hashem sefatai tiftach for that very reason - even our tephillos/teshuva are beyond that which we can take credit for. i would guess that as long as you remain cognizent of that idea and realize that H' is in control of every stage of growth, it is safe to say you're sorry.

Confidence wrote on 16 Feb 2011 18:12:


Is this not what Kosher was referring to in his original question:
kosher wrote on 16 Feb 2011 04:16:

Thank you very much for your replies. I appreciate them.

Without rehashing the issue to much, allow me to make one small point.

In numerous places on GYE you will find the concept of "one day at a time" without getting to deeply into why we need to take that attitude this seems to hit a snag when it comes time to do teshuva. Part of teshuva is the commitment never to do it ever again. Not just for today, forever and ever. How do we make these things consistent?

The second point I want to make is that you will find throughout R' Dov's posts, that he describes himself as an addict (with some pretty graphic details), not was an addict, but currently and addict, just he hasn't acted out in nearly 14 years.

This is neccesary to keep the vigilance that is required to stay on the right track. When we do teshuva are we declaring, "I no longer do that stuff, I am no longer such a person"?

This is way out of my league, but I'd like to add a different dimension.
The standard teshuva model is based on a person doing a chet, a mistake, realising it was a mistake and changing their ways.
It is quite possible that they never do it again and this all makes sense, it is realistic.
In our case, (if I understand the guidebook) we were sent here to fix this particular issue. It is actually part of us, we will never hit the point where we are “no longer such a person”. Every victory is a tikkun in itself.

The average person who drives a car will occasionally damage his car. He will take it to the mechanic, look at the damage and say “wow, I’ll never drive into another tree again.”
We, on the other hand, are the mechanics. Every day we fix a broken car, we get paid for it.

Ok

Let's do this again

Teshuvah

What is teshuvah

Charata

Kabbala

Azivas hachet

Classic teshuvah

Kiyum mitzvas asay of teshuva

Its no joke

Why this path need that Hashem should bear witness that u won't return to your clowniness (kissla?)



So what are we doing here

??


Aha

Good kvestion


Dee gemarra zuggt in miseches succah in dee noons

Avar avairah vishana naaseh kihetter

Shilaish nasseh mitzvah

Call it addiction

Call it mitzvah

Call it vayizoosoo

Our job here is to break the heter mitvah addiction cycle

Just to even the playing field


As my rebbe reb doiv the addikkt zuggt

I don't care what lav suicide is

Me bards

I don't care about all the fine print

I don't mean to belittle it

It just doesn't help me break the cycle


Hust farshtannen??

Havanta?


B

Heiliger Rebbe Reb Bardichev,

Do we only think about stuff that will help us out of this cycle of craving? Is wanting to know which Lav suicide is a stira to not wanting it?

If someone were to say that he refuses to avoid suicide unless he understands exactly why it is prohibited, then you would be right. But someone who agrees that we need to get out of the mess - period - can't also understand it too?

The Rambam (Hilchos Teshuva 2, 1) says that, if a person faces the same Nisayon, and overcomes it ONCE, that is Teshuva Gemura.  The Rambam also says (Hilchos Teshuva 2, 3) that Teshuva (here he doesn't use the stronger term "Teshuva Gemura") is where Hashem testifies that the person will never return to the sin again.  How can this be?  It seems that the Rambam is requiring a much higher standard for regular Teshuva than for Teshuva Gemura, which makes no sense!

The answer, as explained in a recent Navi Shiur by Rav Yisroel Reisman, is that there's a huge difference between the Olam Hamachshava and the Olam Hama'aseh.  If a person only does Teshuva in his mind, but does not actually overcome a Nisayon, then Hashem has to testify that he will never do the aveira again and, even so, it's only a standard Teshuva.  But, if someone actually overcomes a Nisayon, that is considered a Teshuva Gemura - so much so, that if he does the aveira again, it's as if he did it for the first time in his life!  (Of course, the person can't plan to do the aveira again, but as long as he accepts upon himself to try to avoid it - and he overcomes the same Nisayon a single time - that is Teshuva Gemura).  Imagine, then, how great a person's Teshuva can be if he is Omed b'Nisayon day after day (one day at a time, of course)! 

Rav Reisman noted that the second Rambam (Hashem has to testify that he will never do the aveira again) is quoted far more often than the first Rambam and people, therefore, assume that Teshuva is very difficult.  That may be true in the Olam Hamachshava.  However, in the Olam Hama'aseh, we are given constant opportunities to do a Teshuva Gemura.  What a tremendous Chizuk!

V'od...

The Rambam does NOT say ad sheyaged alav yodei asidos that he won't return to his stupidity.

He says, "ad sheyaged alav yodei ta'alumos"

Yodei Asidos = The One Who Knows the Future.
Yodei Ta'alumos = The One Who Knows the Hidden

We need to do such a strong teshuva TODAY, that Hashem, who knows our deepest thought can bear witness on us TODAY that we are PRESENTLY in such a state that we will not sin like that again. This is all based on how he is TODAY.

If TOMORROW we do fall back, it is not necessarily proof that we did do proper teshuva YESTERDAY.



TODAY I regret my past actions.
TODAY I admit my wrongdoings.
TODAY I decide that I do not want to go back there.
TODAY I recognize that I am not strong enough to do it on my own.
TODAY I humbly ask Hashem to please remove the lust from my heart.

By TOMORROW, today will already be yesterday; Tomorrow will be the new TODAY. We will repeat the above.  ;D

That's a good point, but it doesn't address the Rambam in Halacha aleph.

Sorry, I am not a baki in Rambam. I was not intending to argue with your pshat. I was just adding something which I remembered from my Yeshiva days.


I edited my intro from 'Od yesh lomar' to 'V'od' so that nobody should think that I am arguing with what you wrote. It is very good stuff!

Yosef you have an excellent point

The answer is

We can discuss the dakkisdigge lumdis of any halacha

But to the addict

Discussing HOW a trigger works

Is still being ATTACHED to the addiction



I am pretty clear that I am not a
A 12 step person

But I think that's what letting go means

KOT

B