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_ 12 Dec 2010 12:44 #88780

  • kadosh
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Last Edit: 20 Oct 2011 13:18 by .

Re: i am going down 12 Dec 2010 12:50 #88781

  • frumfiend
Find some friends to go out with.
Have a nice long conversation on the phone.
Take a walk and try to notice hashem world.
Daven really hard to hashem to remove your pain.
I really feel your pain. For me just reading the word 19 year old girls has already triggered me.
Hatzlacha
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Re: i am going down 12 Dec 2010 15:11 #88787

  • StrugglingGuy
others including yourself may disagree with this approach but-
instead of looking for physical pleasure with a prostitute, maybe think about looking for a real relationship with a nice jewish girl your age.... not sure where you are holding in terms of dating, but it is possible that going out with someone shayach might a) distract you from looking for a prost. and b) allow for talking and hanging out with a girl in a muttar way
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Re: i am going down 12 Dec 2010 15:41 #88795

  • briut
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kadosh wrote on 12 Dec 2010 12:44:
I know that it would just complicate [...]. It would be 1 hour of pleasure and a life of regret. Complicated. [...] I know you have a word of chizuk for me, i am waiting.
Well, guy, it sounds like you know a lot already. "An hour of pleasure, a life of regret." So any chizuk you're seeking can't be related to coming to SEE that. You ALREADY see that. No, it's got to relate to coming to ACT ACCORDINGLY. And for that, I can't imagine myself, or any of the chevra here, having any stronger & more effective words than you would have yourself!

So I guess my strongest aitza is that you consider talking to yourself. Walk around the block muttering, "an hour of pleasure, a life of regret." And then, instead of harping on this negative "stuff," do what FF advises and find something POSITIVE that can push all the negative thinking away. Learn, exercise, hug your mom, whatever. And then ... here's my big eitza to you ... realize that these loving conversations with yourself ... come from the thoughts that YOU have; that YOU got as a loving gift from a loving Father. Because you're already a know-it-all (and I mean that in the nicest way).

B'hatzlacha, genius.
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Re: i am going down 13 Dec 2010 21:39 #88940

  • Dov
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Dear kadosh,

I do not know you that well - actually I hardly know you at all - just based on what you have written here. If you are anything like me, then these words are for you:

You describe a person who is sliding and holding on tight. That has nothing to do with getting better at all. is the entire idea to "hold on one more day"? I think not. I think that is actually rather silly. if you do not get better in any real way, then eventually you are doomed.

If you are like me, that is.

You listed many reasons to blame: the people around you for being pretty; the fact that you need to see the blackboard; the fact that you are shomer negiyah; the fact that you are single; the fact that you are lacking a neshoma yeseirah during the week....gevalt. How many fingers can you point? Are you ready to admit that the entire problem may be what is inside you?

There are harbei sh'luchim laMakom, the only Recovery that I know is based on finally admitting the truth about myself, and slowly practicing new attitudes toward living, Hashem, and people.

Technically, I agree to some extent with everything you said: The young women around you are pretty (and probably dress inappropriately); being in a married relationship may help with some aspects of your lust problem (while it will also open up new, probably worse issues for you); if you would not be a person who is shomer negiyah then the taboo of a woman's skin might not be as powerful (but it is against the Halochoh so that's not much of a solution); if you didn't have to see the blackboard you'd be able to look the other way (can't you sit in the front?); if the course would be on Shabbos you'd probably have less of a problem (but then it wouldn't be 'Shabbos, would it?)....techically all true.

But in the big picture, when you see past the particular complaints and just look at your approach, I do not agree at all. Alcoholics have taught me that I will not start to get better and get free, until my final excuse for running to my drug has burned up. Our drug appears to be lust, fantasy and masturbation. And whining about it and doing teshuvah over and over, even crying....none of it helps change anything.

Do you just want kapporah - so you can keep masturbating - or do you want to change? I was not ready to change for many years and was terrified to really be rid of my lust. Terrified! Eventually it became a load too heavy to bear, and recovery taught me how to let it go. Hodu laShem ki Tov ki leOlam Chasdo! I needed Chessed, not more powerful Din to let go and start to live free of this mess.

The recovery that I know is based on my learning how to start growing up a bit and seeing all these things differently. It is only 'durch' - by way of - real life that we recover and are helped by Hashem and change. Running away from it and/or blaming just do not work at all. The same exact problem comes back to me later in a different guise, and is just as destructive - unless I accept responsibility ("something is wrong with me"), and learn to change (recovery).

That's why sobriety alone is ultimately a waste of time...if that's all there is it is just a matter of time before the house of cards will collapse.

I hope that helps a bit, and that you do not feel any of what i wrote as an attack chas veSholom.

Hatzlocha!!

Love,

Dov
"Off the 18-wheeler and fine on this tricycle!", "I do not particularly care exactly which "lav" suicide is. I'm not interested in it for other reasons...and you are probably the same."
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Re: i am going down 15 Dec 2010 16:30 #89192

  • Dov
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A few clarifications:

I do not see my lust problem as a YH issue. No. I see it as a mental disease I have, that I have an allergy to lust desire, and that the entire thing has much more to do with v'nishmartem m'od l'nafshoseichem than it does with lo sasuru acharei l'lavchem v'acharei einichem asher atem zonim achareihem.

Now, these could be glib statement or nice drushos...but for me they are not. I really mean it and actually live this attitude, because I must.

My old way of "gevalt! A girl!" and, "Ahh! It's the YH!" is not only childish for me, but even if you say it is the truth, I respond with this:

That derech, of fighting lust with (what I think is) "yir'as Shomayim" is precisely  what got me as messed up as I got in the first place! It's not the p'shat that I tried (what I considered to be) the Torah derech - and it didn't work. Rather, the reality is that what I considered the Torah derech is what made me as sick as I have become! The twisting of the brain, the cheshboinos, the mind games, the rituals to avoid trouble....all twisted me into a treifah beheimah - uneven limbs that did not work to really protect me, anyway.

And now people will tell me all I need to do is try the same "Torah derech" even harder?! To me that is apikorsus. As the Chofetz Chayim used to say, "Being a fool is also ossur." It is asking me to jump into a snake pit - l'Shem Shomayim, of course. I won't do it any more. It doesn't work, and I cannot afford to use schmutz and act out any more. It will destroy my life. It's v'nishmartem m'od lnafshoseichem, not yir'as Shomayim, and not kedusha. Maybe Hashem will grant me kedush, but that is none of my business at all.
Outcomes are 100% up to Him, sei in gashmiyus, sei in ruchniyus. He knows exactly what He is doing, I believe. (That's the 3rd step, BTW.)

The program taught me to start doing what the S'fas Emess said: Hashem has no interest in us being k'doshim. He said what He wants - "v'hyisem k'doshim leilokeichem" - He wants us to be betrothed and set apart for Him! Not to be running after our status as kedoshim - that's just self-serving dressing up in frumkeit. But I am not pas'ling the derech of working on kedusha for kedusha's sake, or seeing lust desire simply as an aveiro. I cannot pas'l it because it apparently works just fine for the average sweet yid! I am only saying that for me, it leads to death.

For me, I get hopelessly twisted into a mud-wrestling match with my lust for the prettiest woman in the class/work area/supermarket/bus, unless I see things is a totally different way:

I am here to help her. Nu, that's a chiddush? What else was I put on this earth for? Not to be of use to Hashem's bru'im? OK, so I notice a beautiful woman - I look away from her because I cannot afford to feed my lust lest it grow and take over my life - and I start to daven for her. Hard. And from the bottom of my heart. For her health - pain of illness is horrifying and I do not wish it on anyone I know. For her family - pain of emptiness and loneliness in life is terrible - pain of lack of Shalom bayis and of hatred in a family is terrible. For her to be protected from making bad mistakes in life. Please potect her from ignoring You, Hashem. Help her know that she is Yours, Your person, with a true, meaningful purpose is life and with an opportunity to know You. Please help her and all of us to not squander that opportunity, the greatest adventure of all in this short life! And include me with "all of us", even though I do not deserve it.

Sometimes I do not have the opportunity to launch into a tefilloh like that, so I at least say as sincerely as He will help me say, "yivorech'cho Hashem." And then be"H I let the image or fantasy go and move on with whatever it is that I was supposed to be busy doing, with His help. If it doesn't go, then I pray more. Sometimes I may ask Him that "whatever good thing I am looking for in the image of that woman, let me find it in You instead, Tatty." Let's face it - we are not evil. That's a different religion that says we are essentially evil, if I am not mistaken. In my (stupid) lusting, I am actually desperate for a feeling, for a warm sweet acceptance, for pleasure, for vitality, for power - all these are from Hashem, and that is what avodah is about: plugging into Hashem. Ani l'Dodi v'Dodi li - elai teshukaso! This is not a just a 'devotional' concept or a 'madreiga', chas veSholom - it is just the plain truth. I am not evil running after lust, just mistaken, That's why it's called a cheit - it is a mistake (thank-you Rav Noach, zt"l).  But I digress... 

My point is not to throw a tool or gimmick at you for beating the YH. You want to use it that way, fine. No charge. You think the entire idea is stupid - gezunterheit. Yivorech'cho Hashem! 

My point is just to illustrate that there is a totally different approach that is alive and well, b"H. Though nothing I wrote here may apply to you in particular, some of us have certainly twisted ourselves into lust machines using their selfish and self-absorbed approach to kedusha and avodas Hashem...I certainly did for many years. I learned it from good people in Yeshivah. It seemed to work for them - but I just got worse.

Ein chavush matir es atzmo mibeis ha'asurim - especially if he insists on using the same behavior patterns and thinking that got him into jail! "I'll try harder! I'll fix up the misconceptions I had before! This time I've got it figured out!"

What hubris I had, to actually think I had the wisdom needed to reinterpret and readjust my approach to Torah, teshuvah and yir'ah from the inside, so that this time, it works! And nobody else really understood me....I had to do it alone, of course. Even when I discovered the steps, I had to work them alone. What a flop that was. The gayvah (and stupidity) was actually incredible. No wonder there was no room for raglei haSh'chinah!

And I could go back there in a minute, c"v, cuz I am an addict.

I feel all this is as plain as the nose on my face.

And there is a way out. And it is breathtakingly beautiful.

Hatzlocha!

"Off the 18-wheeler and fine on this tricycle!", "I do not particularly care exactly which "lav" suicide is. I'm not interested in it for other reasons...and you are probably the same."
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Re: i am going down 17 Dec 2010 12:55 #89587

  • silentbattle
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Wow, Dov - i can completely relate to the feeling of being terrified of letting go of my lust. For years, i was sure that I needed it, and wouldn't be able to survive without it - or at least, I was certain that I couldn't be happy without it.

It took a big wake-up for me to break loose, and I was surprised at how enjoyable life was without the drug. But I needed to get free before I could see that...
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Re: i am going down 17 Dec 2010 13:45 #89591

  • Dov
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Emess. We generally keep using it because we love it, plain and simple. Admitting that at least puts us into the Emess - and Hashem's clear presence is in Emess, davka. Not in shekker - even if it looks like 'holy shekker'.

"Holy shekker, Batman!"
"Off the 18-wheeler and fine on this tricycle!", "I do not particularly care exactly which "lav" suicide is. I'm not interested in it for other reasons...and you are probably the same."
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