Well said. That's why it feels so good when we're clean, because we see more and more how good it is. Not just right, or moral, but good for us.

There's a certain level of completeness there - keep on rocking!

David/Rage wrote on 03 Dec 2010 11:29:


In SA they talk about giving up all expectations of sex... They talk about letting G-d take care of our needs; believing that He is providing for all our needs... When we act-out, it's like we're trying to "fill in for Him", so to speak... We're claiming that "I'd better take care of me, cuz no one else is", when in reality, He is. All the time.

Welcome back. We love Rage style. (p.s. is Shyne your brother?)

Could it be that part of the problem is that we've convinced ourselves that we need this to be happy?

David/Rage wrote on 07 Dec 2010 18:50:
i've heard of people dying from starvation but i never heard of a Pope dying because he was an 'older bachur'

guardureyes wrote on 07 Dec 2010 17:39:


I thought Rage was white with a black kipa? But hey, I could be wrong.

David/Rage wrote on 07 Dec 2010 20:31:


u handsome beast u. that's totally wild rofl

i think u should shave, probably.

Funny I always imagined you a little taller.

Funny, I just got an email offering some pills to make me an inch taller. Or something like that. Maybe I just have to wait for the full moon?

ahahaha g-d those emails r AWkward

ZemirosShabbos wrote on 07 Dec 2010 19:10:


interesting discussion
so I would agree with you guys that it's not on the same level of food/sleep/shelter - BUT I do think that having healthy, kosher initimate relations (a.k.a. sex) is an important part of living (both ruchnius and gashmius).
The way I look at it - Hashem put us here on earth for an important reason - which is to develop a deeper connection to him. For sure we do that in part by struggling&growing in our middos/mitzvos. But annother component is - life roles/experiences: being a son, a brother, a student, a worker, a boss, a husband, a father, sick, healthy, etc... All these things are part of a holistic life. Could a man be happy, live a spiritual life, etc... perhaps even fulfill his personal tachlis in life... all without ever having been married or having sex - I believe yes. But he still would be missing something important (whether the not-being-married part was his choice or not)... I don't want to keep rambling on and on - so my main point is, I guess, that healthy sex is one of the holiest things in the world, and lets us not only connect to our spouses but also to Hashem. While not a vital need (like sleep,food) I still think it's way up there. No?

Very true. BUT.

There are a few issues. At the core is the fact that we've come to view sexual pleasure in a purely selfish way, like it or not. We've gotta get that out of our system, or there's no way we'll ever have a healthy relationship - with our wives, or ourselves.

More than that, though, is that these are rationalizations, ways of covering up our twisted thought processes. Is sex important? Yes. Is it a need? Well, maybe. It's something that definitely helps us in various areas of our lives. But that's irrelevant, because we've already blown it way out of proportion. We've come to see it as an absolute need, and when we're caught in the throes of our disease, we firmly believe that we cannot survive without this pleasure, right now. In fact, I would venture to say that we could more easily give up food and drink for a few hours than we could this pleasure. Think about it - yo're about to sit down and eat, and a tantalizing opportunity offers itself to us. Many of us would save the food for later.

Furthermore, We're like overeaters saying, "well, you need food to survive!" attempting to cover up the fact that they're using food in a completely unhealthy way.

Sex is important, but it's possible to go without and be happy for weeks, months, even years. Ask anyone here who's been clean for an extended period of time, whether they were able to be happy like that.

I can certainly speak from my own experience, because I entered recovery when I was single, with no end in sight. In fact, i even stopped dating for a significant period of time, temporarily cutting off any "hope" of an end to my "suffering." And it's the best thing I ever did, because it helped me realize that I can be happy anyway.

Errr....no one says the Truth quite like he says the Truth.  :o

What it comes down to is the following question - is a single guy like someone on a 300 calorie-a-day diet, or a 1700 calorie-a-day diet?

We obviously think, on some level or another, like the first option. We feel deprived. But the fact of the matter is that we don't have to feel that way. In fact, if we want to catch our balance and start to live healthy lives again, we can't think that way - and all the rationalizations about how a healthy sex life is part of an overall healthy life, and a healthy marriage...that's all just the Lust talking, finding excuses for our obsession.

We need to first learn to live without indulging our sexual drive, and from there, we can learn to relate to it in a healthy way, instead of in a twisted, sick way (as we do now).

To put it another way, the only way to have a healthy, truly enjoyable and satisfying sex life, is to realize that we can live happily without it.

I think.

well put, SB!