I think I'm missing something here.  So far, 5 out of 8 people voted, in effect, that they would sooner lose their sobriety than make the call.  Could someone please explain this to me?

(If you agree, and would like to change your vote, you should be able to do so).

Kedusha wrote on 16 Nov 2010 22:26:


I think because most people feel that if they are that serious enough about the program that a call to a sponsor will help there are other more conventional methods not to fall that don't involve chillul shabbos, such as calling in "five minutes."  We can all keep sober for at least five minutes, and take five minutes at a time until Shabbos is over.  In other words, I think most people feel there is no true situation where the "only" thing that will help is a call.

I agree - if something else may help, then try that first.

You're, in effect, acknowledging, however, that, if this were the only way out, then making the call would be a no brainer.  Indeed, the question makes clear that we're dealing with a case where it's either making the call or losing sobriety.  So the vote should be 8-0 to make the call, but that's not the case.

Kedusha wrote on 16 Nov 2010 22:40:


It also should be a no-brainer that we weren't supposed to look at porn in the first place "but that's not the case" either.  I don't think people look at this rationally.  We have been trained that "frum" people don't make phone calls on Shabbos it is hard to break that ingrained reality.  Whatever training we have had about not looking at porn we broke that barrier long ago.  So while rationally and halachically the call may be appropriate, it goes against what we perceive is our reality.

Does anyone on this forum look at Hatzala drivers as Mechalelei Shabbos?

OK, interesting points. I dare the 8-0 voters to make an (anonymous) note of their sobriety next to their votes. If a person has not been sober for 90 days, I would prefer they do not vote on this question.

This is another application of a basic tenet of AA recovery: Drunks helping drunks.

I could have heard almost every word I heard out of the mouths of my fellow sex and lust addicts - from rabonnim...and I believe it would have had little if any positive effect on me. And I'd probably have been dead by now.

If you actually are in the parsha, then share it. If it is just theoretical for you - though it makes a whole lot of sense to you - then better to put a lid on it and wait until you actually do it yourself before trying to influence anyone else. Otherwise what comes out is nice - but hollow. And judging the shayla in the poll is the same: If you actually have a long sobriety streak, then by all means, answer the poll! If not, then I'd snidely suggest that it could be the very same attitude that makes it seem ridiculous to make such a call on Shabbos, that makes it impossible for one the stay sober!

Sorry for the cynicism, but it's late and I'm tired. Pffffttt!

:-*

I don't know the halacha - but assuming that rabbonim that I trusted were matir making the call, then, well that's the right thing to do!

I wonder if this is part of the problem: By making the call, I'm making a very bold statement about just how important recovery is. Once I do that, how can i ever justify falling, ever again? Much easier to tell myself that it's not nearly so bad as all that, just to fall this once...

What do you think?

I agree with both Dov and Silentbattle. 

Regarding what Dov wrote: Indeed, only an addict in recovery can truly appreciate that this is indeed an issue of Pikuach Nefashos (even if that were not the case, as previously indicated, it need not be Pikuach Nefashos in order to allow a Shvus d'Shvus; this is a Halacha Mefureshes, and the Adam Gadol did not dispute that the Geder is whether the person is a Choleh she'ein bo sakana).  And any addict who has not yet begun recovery (for argument's sake, let's say that means he has less than 90 days) will probably vote "no," because, frankly, he fell last week on a Tuesday, without calling anyone, so why should he, all of a sudden, be making calls on Shabbos?

Regarding what Silentbattle wrote: Yes, if recovery is worth making a call on Shabbos, then it's certainly worth making a call during the week!  Even knowing that I would potentially make the call on Shabbos should make me realize how important it is to make the call during the week.

As you can see, fine tuning this poll is more art than science.  I have reset the poll once again, to allow voters to indicate whether or not they have 90 days clean.  Please vote again everyone!

Well, it seems to be unanimous! ;D

.....I really played dirty this time..... :-[ :

OK, Reb K, you can beat me down the next time we see each other.

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

No problem, I undid the vandalism!

So where is the vote holding??

David,

Look above - and why not vote yourself?

I didn't have a chance to go through the whole thread to give my psak.