Forgive me if I don't understand the question. Gee, in my Sefer haMitzvois, the term pikuach nefesh meant saving someone's LIFE, not just the "health" of their nefesh. Are we really talking about a case where the guy would be jumping off a cliff ch'v but would be saved by a phone call with the sponsor? ? ? Or even SOFEK P'N?

No, I think we're talking about a case where there's potential for great emotional PAIN but not death. So the parallel is to putting an ointment on an infected paper cut. In which case, I can't imagine a posek saying, "whatever; could go either way; YOU decide."

If the guy is totally brutally honest in posing the sheileh, then the Rav is gonna be totally honest in giving an answer. Which I can't imagine is "make the call" to stop, any more than I can imagine the answer being "make the call and act out already if you're feeling so so bad."

Am I missing something here, or is this just a thinly-veiled attempt to justify the phone call in the guy's own eyes?

Briut,

I took down the poll, so forget about how it was worded.  But, see reply #19 for an explanation as to why this may be permitted even without it being a matter of Pikuach Nefashos.

(See also reply #21 for a greater understanding as to how this actually can be Pikuach Nefashos for some people).

Kedusha wrote on 14 Nov 2010 16:22:


Shucks, I was just about to vote!!

guardureyes wrote on 14 Nov 2010 17:51:


I'm not sure if you're serious, but I put it back up in modified form. 

Everyone, now's your chance to vote (or to vote again, if you voted in the previous gilgulim of this poll).

Kedusha wrote on 14 Nov 2010 04:11:
Sorry, Kedusha, I'm still not convinced. Let's take any of the other 12-step addictions. If that OA/Soveya addict is about to grab some kugel that might cause a heart attack, it's worth a call?? If the AA member decides a shalom zochor is important enough for just one drink, it's worth a call?? Yes, they can't pull together proper bechira, but it's not outside the realm of normal FUNCTIONING.

I always understood "normal functioning" to be like the medical term of "independent activities of daily living." So if the guy can put his pants on in the morning, and his only problem is keeping those hands out of those pants , I have my doubts that the halachic hurdles are met. He's not in danger from not functioning, but only in danger of not functioning al pi halacha. Which doesn't convince me.

But, as you say, this is a sheileh for poskim and not a poll for addicts. I'd only add that the sheileh must be presented fully, honestly, and with integrity. Which means, it da**ed well better be presented before the moment before the moment of no return. Which ones of us have the to do that?!

I don't see why relapsing to any addiction would be less serious than the examples Rav Bodner gives (depression or anxiety - where there is not even a Safek Sakana) - see reply #19. 

The point, for the food addict, is not that he'll eat one piece of kugel, but that he'll be binge-eating for who knows how long and his sobriety will be completely derailed.

As for the alcoholic, I maintain that an alcoholic losing his sobriety is at least Safek Pikuach Nefashos.  However, at the very least, it would fall into the category of incapacitation, discussed in reply #19.

Update: It is now possible to change your vote, in case anyone changes his mind.

Kedusha wrote on 14 Nov 2010 18:25:
We could play what I'd call "duck season, rabbit season" for days, but I'll refrain from further comment. Feel free to PM if you'd like to know how to shecht a rabbit.

Again, I plan, b'li neder, to try to ask this question to a Posek who is willing to be quoted on the record.  I think it needs to be asked in advance, because b'shaas ma'aseh, "Hasho'el Harei Zeh Shofech Damim."

Hunnh? Your Poll is now worded: If your only way to avoid losing a long streak of sobriety was to call a non-Jewish sponsor on Shabbos, would you do so?  Assume that, al pi Halacha, there is ample authority to permit this?

And sorry to flog this dead horse to death, but I'll add one more PS.

You seem to be assuming there's not a way to reach out that would NOT violate Shabbos. Like maybe living in a town without any possibility to walk to a sponsor, GYE member, shrink, etc. Are you sure there's no one in your town who could qualify? Again, PM me if you want any hints.

Say there's two feet of snow on the ground (remember last winter?), and my trusted frum sponsor or chaver lives several miles away.  Let's be practical here.

CAN YOU USE TELEPATHY WITH A GRAMA SWITCH (that's the switch that only grama is allowed to use) TO REACH OUT TO A NON-JEW ON SHABBOS IF YOU'RE ABOUT TO FALL?

--Eye.

alcoholics are told to drive to meetings on shabbos. (I was told by an alcoholic that this was his psak)

Makes sense, because for an alcoholic, it's Pikuach Nefashos, literally.  In our case, I don't know about driving, which involves countless Melachos d'Oraysa, but I don't have any doubts about using the phone with a Shinuy, for the reasons discussed in reply #19.

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