I Have been struggling with this "addiction" for many years, i am a ba'al teshuva who is married (wife has no clue) and in learning. I was told about this site from a friend and find it very interesting yet one thing still bothers me. I'm sure many of you might think i'm a bit crazy but this is my issue:
I find it difficult to turn to help in the form of psychologists and and secular methods, it is hard for me to accept that i cannot find a solution through the Torah and its wisdom. Maybe someone who understands what i'm trying to say can shed some light on the topic. I am aware that i have not succeeded with this path so far and that is why i am here but i often think that its just because i'm not trying hard enough...

One of the basic concepts of Emunah (Shesh Mitzvos Timidios, Ani Ma'amins) that Hashem is the creator of the world and that nothing happens without Him. We are powerless to do anything He controls everything.

Another concept is Hergel Na'ase Teva and Kol Hachote V'shone Na'ase loh K'heter. That once you get into the habit of doing something (for good or for bad) it becomes extremely difficult to stop doing it.

Then we can include the basic componants of Teshuva such as Charata Azivas Hachet, etc.

If you study and internalize these ideas you will realize that practically all the ideas espoused in the 12 steps or any recovery program are included in the above without my having mentioned any psychology  or non-Torah source.

Now do you feel better?

Please read Dov's story: www.guardyoureyes.org/?p=176

Shuky wrote on 10 Nov 2010 17:17:

1. Don't be so sure!
2. And if she has no clue there's a GYE-type problem, she still might feel "some kind of" problem. A lack of emotional closeness. An unavailability when you're involved in 'inappropriate activities.' Whatever.
3. So, yes, you're in this to save HER as well as yourSELF as well as the MARRIAGE.

But you knew that already. That's why you're here. B'hatzlocho. Welcome aboard. Keep posting.

[quote="Steve's Email Blast]Shlomo shared his asking Rabbi Twersky in person "Why do I need a 12 Step Program, and learn this from goyim, why can't I use Torah Sources?" Rabbi Twersky answered VERY directly, that "IT IS ALL TORAH PRINCIPLES" already. Why HKB"H put it in to Bill Wilson's mind to bring to the world we don't know, but rest assured that it is ALL TORAH.[/quote]

I recall hearing (possibly in the name of the Chasam Sofer Ztz"l) that since a Yid is an entirely different creation than a non-jew, the medicines that heal them ought not to work by cholei yisroel, R"L. It is a chesed from Hashem that those medicines also heal a Jewish body so that the R&D, all the development needed to acquire a complete stock of diverse medication, doesn't have to be 'learned' on us!

Maybe the same can be said about this program. This particular combination & sequence of Toradig concepts was first put into practice on the gentiles in order for us to see, and to prove to us that it really works!!!


How does that sound to you?

First of all welcome.

And now for your Statment...."I'm sure many of you might think i'm a bit crazy but this is my issue:" I want to tell you- over 50% of the guys when they join the 12 step phone conference voice the same issue. and i am sure many more think it.

For the detailed answer i will leave for the experts. However,for myself as i learned and continue to learn about the 12 steps i see it is all things that i learned in the past in torah and musar somehow it's organized in a practical form to help us get to and understand the torah.

For me it worked- i would suggest you give it a try and judge for yourself.

Please take a seat and join the boys..

Post away.

David

Shuky wrote on 10 Nov 2010 17:17:

There was a beatiful quote once in one of the Chizzuk E-mails.

Someone asked Rav Twersky if the 12-step program is in-line with Torah.
His response:  "Why don't you ask me if p*rn is in line with Torah?"

First of all, we've got to take whatever will get us out of this vicious cycle.  We're only going down hill if we don't stop.

Secondly, most of the people on this site are Jews, and religious at that.

Thirdly, much of the chizzuk floating around IS from divrei Torah.

Fourthly,  if it's not from Torah, it's from common sense--which is also Torah (S'vara he, Lama Li Kra!)

Finally, lots of the chizzuk here is either directly or indirectly from the 12 step program.  Rav Twersky has said about the 12-steps, "It's all Torah, and I have no idea why Hashem put these ideas into the mind of a goy."  It is also publicly endorsed by Rav Aharon Feldman, Rosh Yeshiva of Ner Yisrael.

Does any of that help?

  --Eye.

Does an alcoholic try to remain sober by attending AA, or by going to the Bais Midrash?

The gemoro does say that a Talmid Chochom that dislikes wine should drink large gulps. _(Sukkah)


;D

I am no expert in the 12 steps, I never used them (or needed them), my only knowledge of them comes from what I see on the forum here.

That said, when I learned Shaarei Tshuva of Rabbainu Yonah recently, it really seemed to me that much of what he says about how to go about teshuva is very much in line with the 12 step methods (or should I say it the other way?)

I would read through this article:  www.aish.com/sp/pg/Judaism__the_12_Steps.html  Hatzlacha

What is secular knowledge?

Is it the study of the world?

Who created the world and set the laws of nature?

Is the human body and mind of an addict governed by laws of nature?

If I have not been clear please tell me and I'll explain.

There is only One Force in the whole world. He created everything and we just learn the laws, both of nature and Torah, that He made.

Why didn't Chazal write books on physics?

I don't know, but I do know that Hashem set those principals into place.

Regarding mental health Dr. Greenwald of Monsey writes in his sefer that there is a medresh that there where 60 meschtas of healing that were lost.

I also am. Wondering if it bothers you that your doctors are not talmeidai chachamim? 

Many people think mussar and mental health are one and the truth is they are not.

Talk to any chashuva Rav with life experince.

ALSO, the torah itself says, "If they say the goyim have chochma, you can believe it."

So, if they've managed to get millions of drunks, and plenty of other addicts, out of the gutter with something, I think that qualifies as chochma.

--Eye.

i sat down with a yid that was mishamesh gedolie yisrael and is a talmid of reb volba. I explained him my opinion that without feeling powerlessness mussar will just be a ego building exercise. He agreed with me.

Wow! What's offered here is amazing!

I've been there, too. As far as I am concerned, let the guy who insists on 'finding' the answer in (his idea of) the Torah (it's always his interpretation of the Torah, of course, but we always insist on labeling it 'The Torah'!) keep trying.

When enough rabbonim and talmidei chachomim end up in the newspaper and our shame increases so that finally that none of the kinderlach believes in the power of Torah any more, then the kinderlach of a shame-filled Klal Yisroel will start looking into the 12 steps.

And there will be a very rude awakening.

We will discover that it wasn't the Torah that was powerless to help us. All the power - and everything - is in the Torah! Rather, it was we who were the powerless ones all along - unable to stop and too messed up to use the Torah. But we insisted on hiding behind the Torah to cover up our own complete and embarrassing inability to stop. Our illness was too embarrassing to admit - especially because we are avdei Hashem and the Am hanivchar. We 'smart ones' could not do the first step that poshuteh inner-city drunks, drug addicts and goyishe farmhands have readily accepted! We were a cut-above!

Really.

K'chochvei Shomayim - or ka'afar haaretz? It's one or the other, indeed.

The Torah is just fine. We need help and we need it badly.