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Dear Reuven,

I think I was the first to see your post, and therefore I am taking the liberty of replying even though I don't have all the answers.

Regarding suicidal thoughts, you have to realize that that's jumping from the firepan into the flames.  clearly whatever pain you are experiencing now does not come close to the cheshbon one would have to give after commiting suicide r"l.

If suicide thoughts are entering your mind that means you should see a psychotherapist without wasting a moment.  Even if you say at the moment you are not having these thoughts, you can't take chances.

I plan on writing more, but I want to get this post to you asap.

Another thought quickly....

rereading your post it seems that you are quoting your yetzer hara verbatim.


Seeing your progress, the satan can't stand to see how he is losing his grasp over you.
He proceeds to tell you everything in your post... i.e.  there's no teshuva for you...  look what you've done...  what would your rosh yeshiva say.... 

95% of your post is your yetzer hora talking.

I read here somewhere, that while trying to get you to do an aveiroh, the yh never brings these guilt feelings into your head...
but.... any other time of day he'll pile it on to try to make you as depressed as he can.

Focus on what is in your power to change.

Now IS NOT THE TIME for feeling guilty. 

yes! nothing can ever stand in the way of your teshuva. there is no aveirah which you cant do teshuva for. the very act of you putting even a little effort into controlling yourself makes hashem cry of joy. you wont have to live in shame either!
i would say something else but i see that world has already said what i would have said.

I feel some of your pain and I am sure that there is so much I cannot even fathom.

Your seemed plueged by guilt. G-d wants remorse not guilt. Guilt will prevent you from serving him remorse will help you serve Him better.

You might not be able to undo the damage you did but you still have a chance to use the rest of your life to make the biggest kiddush hashem possible.

The Meseilos Yisharim in chapter 4 asks the following question "If someone murdered or committed adultery how is it possible for him to repair it? Is it possible to undo his action?"

He goes on to say something shocking

That teshuva is a vehicle specifically Designed to enable such a person to rectify actions which cannot be undone.

BTW RAMCHAL was not a chasidisha rebbe

Dear Bechori Reuven,

I come from a pretty abusive background myself and my heart goes out to you...

Regarding what has been done in the past..., I believe that with the right approach you can get past it over time.
3-4 years ago did you ever imagine that you would be were you are today???!!!
You can over time reach places that seem totally unreachable now.
I talk from experience!!

Little me wont claim to have the answers but here are some thoughts:

1. You were most likely an Onus.
2. "Those that were abused, abuse. (until they deal with their past of course)" It's as simple as that! There are studies upon studies attesting to this. So you basically ended up doing what the studies would predict you would do. This comes as no surprise...

3. It may help to see what Choshiva people would tell you. I would present my entire background and the abuse you received/receive (in it's entirety!!!! No details left out) to an Adom Chashiv that has experience with these things. Let's see how they would see it...

4. Teshuva was created to UNDO the past to have it ERASED. Teshuva is not an abstract concept it is a fact of life. Teshuva was created for just the circumstance you are in. Teshuva is not some unattainable unreachable state, it is something that every single person in every single situation can reach, you included. It is that simple, and some guidance from someone who you respect that has experience in these things will be able to guide you through this and then as far as Hashem is concerned it will be as though it was never done. Period. There is also a process of Teshuva for Bain Adom L'chavairo it is very workable and manageable and you can be freed from it.....

5. I get the part thoughts of suicide as self pity, it is quiet understandable (I agree that it is very very unlikely that you'd act on it...). I wouldn't worry about it much...

And since we are already talking about suicide, I recently read a good line: "the mistake of suicide is that it is a permanent solution to a temporary problem"

Keep on Posting!!

Holy Yid wrote on 03 Oct 2010 20:48:


If I may add: The damage can certainly be undone. Yes Undone!!

Bechori Reuven wrote on 03 Oct 2010 21:19:


What was done may be perceived negatively, but YOU are not scum. You were reacting very predictably considering the severe extent of abuse you faced/face....

Regarding undoing: I can't tell you specifically how, but there is a very reasonable way called Teshuva. When you are up to it, it would be worthwhile to discuss this with an appropriate Rov/Rosh Yeshiva/etc to map at a "teshuva plan".

is there anything you can do to get those girls help now?

dear bechori reuven
i've read your post and my heart goes out to you.
i believe there is no worse feeling on earth than feeling that something terrible has occured and there is no one to blame but yourself.

you write that you are stuck on your past actions, caught up in what you once were and unable to forgive yourself. the only way you can move on from this in your life is to attain closure.

as me3 suggests, one way to embark on a journey towards closure is to help those who you have in the past harmed. this can be anything from trying to get phycological help for your siblings to simply davening that Hashem should help them become emotional healthy and ok.

another thing, you mention that you are now nice to these younger siblings-are you close? the reason i ask this is because there is something that would lift a tremendous weight off your chest.
imagine if you begged mechilah from your siblings- even if they would not immediately forgive, perhaps not even for a long time, if you ask in all sincerity and show how truly broken up you are, this can make a huge difference.
firstly to them, and secondly to you. i see it as being a tremendous relief to you to know you have reached a point where you have acknowledged and seen what you have done and are repentant enough to ask for mechilah.
lots of times people do a song and dance around the elephant in the room. it will never go away like that. perhaps dragging it by the tusks into the open is the only way to clear it up.

Dear painfully sober friend,

It was painful for me to read your post. I am glad that you are putting the Yesod Yosef and R' Ahron Rotta's sforim on the back burner, for now. I am interested to know how long you have been sober for, thank-G-d, so far. It seems you are really working a Program. Yivorech'cha Hashem, brother. 

Concerning your pain: if you work your program such as it is, I have faith that Hashem will help you and those siblings of yours. None of you may 'heal' in the way you want, but you will each grow in whatever ways He has in store for you. Perhaps all you can do is bear the pain while doing the very best you can under the circumstances, living the life Hashem is arranging for you. And 'doing the best you can' probably means staying sober and growing in humility, rather than in any madreigos, c"v. Lo sa'aleh b'ma'alos al bizbechi, asher...etc is very important for me to remember. All the more so for anyone with more kochos and good character than I have. You learn a lot, I don't.

Looking at yourself as scum is probably not humility. Perhaps you despise child molesters and see them as scum. Perhaps you fear that society feels such people cannot ever be forgiven. Maybe that's true. But as your friends have been writing above, Hashem seems not to see people that way. True, a murder with eidim and hasro'oh needs the tikkun of chiyuv misah, but I believe it is barur kachama that a murderer can still be chaviv and ne'ehav by Hashem. Even if he has to die. What's more, I believe that teshuvah enables the tikkun to really 'work', when the time comes. And as far as suicide is concerned, Hashem has that angle covered, too: we will all die, right? The question is do we want to 'do' the tikkun on our schedule - or on His=when the time is really right? Same question Odom and Chava had in Gan Eiden: keep the Odom the way Hashem made him and let him grow on Hashem's schedule (for another few hours)...or take matters (Da'as and the YH) into our own hands and let our anochius/ego lead the way?

Have you gotten up to step 8&9? You are all wrapped up in pain - when you make your amends to those two people you will all get better. Learning how to do that is what recovery will be about at that point in your life, and Hashem will help you out. If you are not at those steps yet, that's fine. Take your time and work 4-7 as thoroughly as you can. You describe how some of the pain you are feeling is bending you out of shape. That's what 4 is for. It's a character defect. It's a problem you've got. While you are certainly not scum, you do have some real challenges. This is what recovery is for!

That's why it's so nice to read that you are serious about being in recovery.

Living recovery and fitting teshuvah into your life is an adventure. It is amazingly interesting and there are surprises around almost every corner - mostly good ones.

Keep on going, brother.

I would like to pose a suggestion that will not and will be immediately helpful simultaneously.
One of the best things you could do would be to help others make sure that it doesnt happen again and help those that it has happened to (victims) understand the illness that caused the abuser to act, thereby preventing the psychological (and spiritual) mess that leads the abused to feel like scum (I use your words for a reason).  By seeing that the abuser has a serious problem they can alleviate feelings of self blame and low self esteem that come with abuse. 
Now you cant do any of that until you at least partially overcome and make teshuva the best that you can.  While ever action we do we are held accountable for, they also out of our control come retrospect.  You cant do anything about what you did except mend the relationships, pick yourself up and move on.  That may be your goal, to reach the high that can only be achieved by hitting the low.

Bechori Reuven, I am really sorry to hear about your situation.  I cannot even begin to imagine how difficult life was for you growing and what led you to do what you did.  Just out of curiosity, do you still talk to your siblings?  All I can do is copy what everyone else wrote which is that you should not give up and just try to pick yourself back up.  You are clearly in a low in your life, but hey, it's probably not going to get much worse.  I think it would probably be very helpful to go to a psychologist (besides for the suicidal thoughts) because what you went through is something that therapists have huge amounts of training for and they will probably be very helpful (more helpful than this website) and also because you can tell them more personal details that you won't share here.  All I can do is just share with you a quick story I heard about a certain gadol (I can't remember which one) who's father was very ill and he would sit at his bedside day and night so that he would not be alone.  One night this rav's children (the sick guy's grandchildren) came to him and told him that they would sit by zeidy for the night so that he should be able to get some rest becaue he was tending to his father all the time.  After he refused a number of times, they finally persuaded him to get some rest.  That night the rav's father was niftar.  When the rav saw that his father passed away he was convinced that he murdered his own father.  He said that his father saw him at the bedside all the time and that night when he looked and saw that his son was not there he figured that his son had given up on him and he therefore died.  He was taken to many rabanim who all tried to convince him that it was not his fault, but it didn't do anything and he was so miserable because he really thought he killed his father.  Finally he was taken to the chofetz chaim (I think) who after failing to convince him that it was not his fault, told him like this: "Fine. Let's say you did kill your father.  But guess what?  There is something called Teshuva and you can make it as though you never killed him.  don't give up and it will be alright." Just that bit of chizzuk made the rav so happy and he was able to do teshuva and go back to normal.  I think the same message applies here.  the gate of Teshuva is always open and especially when there are tears for the gate of tears are never closed and there is always a way back.  Just hang in there, put on a smile, and it will be alright.

Bechori,

Just to throw in nofech misheli.

It is impressive that you are working a program to the best of your ability.  I'm sure you have read the AA book and the White book.  As you know the "Program" encompasses many things.  The central part of the program are the Steps which you have begun.  But all 12 Step literature state quite clearly that the program doesn't work when done on your own.  Experience of hundreds of thousands of addicts has been that the program only works when done within the context of being part of a group, hence the meetings.

Understandably because of your past you may be hesitant to go meetings and share that part of your experience.  Not a problem.  No one at a meeting is going to make you share anything.  Just show up a and listen.  When and if you feel comfortable you can share about yourself to whatever degree seems appropriate. 

What you have shared here is no more shocking than many things I have heard people share in meetings.  Many of us addicts have harmed people in many ways.

In my experience there is no substitute to heal the shame of the past like being part of a group of like sufferers.

I wish you the best.  THERE IS HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dear BR,

May I be so bold as to ask you what group that is? (you could PM me if that's better)