I find this topic intriguing as occasionally I am asked to daven (during the week), and if its very close to a recent fall I would say no out of guilt and shame.  However if its a few days after a fall, I would agree, perhaps on the premise that "I am on the way back", the past is the past.  Like others, I think its where you are holding now not before, however its probably best if a Rav could somehow get some input on this.

dear chevra, i too, am shliach tzibur, plus baal tokea, plus baal neila.i,too, had this question.and i went to ask a BIG rabbi.he said we dont look into a person's background anymore.i dont know if he meant the PAST background, or the CURRENT state.and i wasn't specific, i just asked him if we look at the person's status in general
every year for 38 years i klapped  'al chayt shechetanu b'vidas znus'. every year for 38 years i said 'Hashem, it's a lie - You know i'm going to do it again right after sukkos.but please, PLEASE, help me!' and you know what? 2 years ago i found guardureyes.amazing! i knew then that Hashem sent me a yeshua.and even though i'm not perfect (yet),i feel confident that i am going in the right direction. and as long as i keep my connections with the fine people here, i am at least trying.it is these thoughts that are in my mind as i lead the tzibur. please listen to rabbi reisman's shiur on this topic from the navi yirmiyahu.

i wish everyone a ksiva vachasima tova, a gut gebenched yur, and besoros tovos.
jack

and one more thing - on yom kippur it says 'mavir ashmoseinu bchal shana vshana', He removes our sins every year, and the pshat is that He removes THE SAME SINS THAT HE REMOVED LAST YEAR! AS long as you are trying, and feel bad (NOT depressed!) we say 'lev nidke vnishbar Hashem lo sivzeh'.

Thank you Jack.

I just thought that just as we have all realised through GYE that "we are not the only ones" I am now seeing that I am not the only Chazzan with this conflict. (Actually we have a surprisingly high representation of Chazonim at GYE!)

not only do we have chazanim, but we have some of the smartest, most talented people i have ever 'met'. did you notice that the kindest  people in the world get hit with the most difficult challenges that life has to offer? this is because sensitive people are just that - sensitive to life, and therefore are more inclined to be affected by the most difficult challenges. people that are not sensitive just let it roll off. i dont want to embarass anyone on this forum, but the people that helped me are the likes of which i have never ever met anywhere else.
jack

I just thought of another point...

Who says the OTHER chazan is better?

--Eye.

im a little confused. Is this a halachic shala or a touchy feely issue. If it is a real shaala than first place it doesent belong being discussed on the forum. As far as the halachic issue what the dffrence between yomim noraim and any day. If we have a status of a rasha we cannot count for a minyan or be a halachic witness. Whats the diffrence between us and somone that speaks loshon hora.
If this is is just a touchy feely thing than i guess it depends on how you feel.

ovadia wrote on 17 Aug 2010 16:13:


I for one would say "This is just what we need my friend: An imperfect humble jew who tries... What a perfect  representation of the Tzibur... Who more than you can understand the need for forgiveness? Who more than you can cry and shake the heavens? Does it really make a difference the exact nature of the Avieros that each of us has? Can anyone really compare one Aviera to another and say that this  Jew is worse than the other? If I'm not mistaken there is a Tefilla that we say on Yomim Noraim where we say that we were Motzi Zerah Levatalah, it seemingly applies to the majority!!!

Please tell me where your Minyon is, I would want to be a part of it. I would want no one more than you to lead me."

I am not saying any of this 'Stam', I mean every word I said!!!!!

R' Ovadia you are lacking in Emunah of the Koach of teshuva. Teshuva was created to cleanse people like us. If you believe that sin damages than you cannot say that Teshuva doesn't cleanse. Frankly it's Apikorses!!!!!

We fall and we repent. The Yetzer Harah doesn't go away after we repent it gets stronger every day so we sometimes fall again all we need to do is try to get back up and ask hashem for help.

A tzadik is someone who consistently falls and gets up falls and gets up falls and gets up.... This is the way it's meant to be... Sheva Yipol Tadik V'kom. This is how we shteig... We hope to get better and better.
I testify that you are someone that fits this bill....

R' Noson Vochtfoygal Zt"l the Mashgiach of Lakewood once told someone that if people knew about the Terrible thoughts he has they would fire him!!

P.s. The Gemorah says that someone who makes a neder Al Minas that he is a TZADIK GUMUR it is a valid neder since he may have had a Hirur Tehsuva. Think about it, One Hirur Teshuva makes him a "TZADIK GUMUR"!!!!!!!!

frumfiend wrote on 22 Aug 2010 14:01:


TOUCHY-FEELY HALACHIC ISSUES

[right] מבי"ט (בית אלקים שער התשובה פ"ו)  (מובא ב"עלים לתרופה" גליון תצ"א – וילך תשס"ו]- ענין התשובה, ששב האדם בכל שנה ושנה, וחוזר אחר כך למה שחטא.... נראה מדברי רבותינו כי כיון שחזר האדם בתשובה ... וגמר בלבו שלא לעשותם עוד, השי"ת מעביר חטאתו בתשובה זאת, ואם אח"כ חוזר לחטוא, יצה"ר הוא שפתה אותו מחדש... [ויש להוסיף – שרואים שיום כיפורים נקבע מראש לחזור בכל שנה – "מלך מוחל וסולח לעונותנו ולעונות עמו בית ישראל ומעביר אשמותינו בכל שנה ושנה" (מוסף ליו"כ.[/right]

-From Teshuva B'zmanenu by Dr. Sorotzkin

R' Noson
Vochtfoygal
Zt"l the
Mashgiach of
Lakewood
once told someone that
if people knew
about the
Terrible
thoughts he
has they would fire
him!!
The amoroim said that everyday they had lustfull thouhts. So maybye they were also addicts. Some amoroim said that they would have surely sinned if they had been misyachaid. Zimri was also  mezane with a goy.Are we at his level of a nasi.  How dare we compare ourselfs to a musar great that with his deep insight found some cranny of darkness in himself. Our sins on the other hand are aknowledged as serious shortcomings by almost the entire civilized world.
Please let us take a reality check. We may not be as bad as the world thinks but we aint close to being tzadikim. A tinok sheneshba aint a tzadik. A nebech apikoris is oich a apikores. A nebach parutz is still a parutz.

frumfiend wrote on 23 Aug 2010 04:03:



The story with R' Noson Vachtfogel shows that one should not shun a position of Hashpaha just because he has faults... R' Vochtfogel on his level and us simple people on our low level...

Hz"l is a terrible sin, this is obviously not up for debate.

The question is whether it disqualifies you in the eyes of Hashem to the point where it would be wrong to be a Shaliach Tzibur....

I believe that someone who does not want to be Choteh, feels bad, deeply regrets it, tries to figure out ways to not fall again and reaches out and tries his hardest to do his best..... is doing Teshuvah and is no less in Hashem's eyes than someone who is a Ball Teshuvah from aveiros like Habitual Lashon Harah, Gezel, Chilul Hashem, Gavah, or any other grave Aveirah.

I for one do not see someone like that as a Nebach or an Apikores.!!!!!

I was taught that B'mokom shebalei teshuvah omdim ain tzadikim gemurim yecholim Lamod...

I was taught that Zidonos nasim Lo k'shgagos...

I was taught that Teshuvah is accessible to everyone...

The same Torah and The same Ribono Shel Olom that gave the Issurim is the same Torah and the same Ribono Shel Olom that created Teshuva to undo the wrongs....

Did I ever say that we are up to par with Amorim, Nesseim or "Mussar Greats"?? ?? ?? ??

Frankly, I do not believe that my post called for such a sharp response......

frumfiend wrote on 22 Aug 2010 14:01:


In my understanding the difference between being the Chazzan on the Yomim Noroim and any other day of the year, is that on the Yomim Noroim the Shliach Tzibbur is at least in some aspects the represntative of the Tzibbur, while any other day of the year B'zmanainu when the Shat'z is no longer Moitzee the Tzibur he just leads. This is the reason I asked the question in the first place, not because I feel that the Tefilos of the Yomim Noroim are more important than other Tefilos.

As Tried wrote, the point was never whether an addict is a Rasha or not. The assumption was that an addict is not a Rasha, but the fact remains that he is oiver serious issurim on a regular basis. Therefore his exposure to p & m might hamper seriously his ability to be the ideal Shaliach.

I do not think there is any real difference between this and Loshon Hora, except that the chances are that someone who speaks Loshon Hora on a regular basis might not be asked to be a Chazan while generally no one knows that their revered Chazzan may be an addict.

Since I wanted to hear the opinion of someone who is not part of the GYE Kehilla. We are biased, after all.

I posed this shayla to the Rav of my shul. He knows all about GYE, I regularly repeat some of the posts to him. He replied with an unequivocal 'yes'! As a source for his answer he quoted a Teshuva from the Tzemech Tzedek of Lubavitch concerning believing the testimony of a Jewish soldier who ate treifus while in the army and being mattur an agunah based on that testimony. He writes that even though that soldier (based on the specific circumstances) was in the category of a meizid, an intentional sinner, it was l'tei'avin not l'hachis. Therefore, while he must do the teshuvah of a meizid, he did not lose his status as a Jew in good-standing and he is believed even in the extremely stringent matter being mattur an Agunah!


Kol shkein, that he is allowed to be a baal tefillah durring the Yamim Nora'im! In fact, he would make a very good choice as a shliach for the tzibbor!

I continued asking the Rav by posing these words of Ovadia:ovadia wrote on 17 Aug 2010 16:13:


His response was remarkably close to what Ovadia himself answered:

And the Rav added in his humility, "Halevay, that our shul should have such an erliche Baal Tefila." (The Rav is the Baal Tefilla in his Shul.)

Thanks R' Yosef Hatzadik....