Hi Everyone,

I haven't been on the site for quite a while. I got involved with an ex-girlfriend from before I was religious out of lust and loneliness and then we started spending a lot of time together, having fun, rekindling feelings for each other. She is serious about conversion and has been for a long time, but as of yet she is not Jewish.

Over the last few weeks, I came to feel that I actually love her, and the lustful part went away. We talked about her conversion, and marriage possibilities. In general, I respect her and enjoyed our time together very much. I brought her to visit my Rav to get advice on conversion.

However, all along I had a very heavy feeling because we were having relations often. I recognize that sexual relations with a gentile is a grave sin and I've read some of the kabbalistic sayings on it. I hated being with her sexually and then going to shul and acting like everything was normal. And it was hard to make it seem to my Rav as if she was just a friend because I could never admit that we were having relations often to anyone (even my parents, and they aren't religious!)

She left this morning and we agreed that it would be best to stay in touch by phone but no more sex. But I feel terrible about what I've done and I don't know how to do teshuva for all the intercourse that we had. I also dropped off on my mitzva observance and stopped waking up for shacharis because we had stayed up late the night before. Now I'm horrified to think this was all a mistake.

I'm feeling kind of hopeless about doing Teshuva. I have no idea what will happen. Maybe she will convert and be a ger tzedek and we will get married, or maybe she's not for real and there was no purpose to any of this. Either way, I feel terrible about this dirty secret and I had to let it out to my friends on GYE. How can I do teshuva?

Aryeh! Welcome back. Before you worry about teshuvah - it would seem that you've got make sure that you're sure you won't go back to her. As far as teshuvah, well, unfortunately, all of us have done horrible averos...zerah levatala ain't no picnic either. Which indeed is worse?

Methinks that we all got our cup of tea...If we truly abandon our ways, the process of teshuvah works. Nekudah.

the issue really is what to do with a physically and emotional relationship that is bad for you...

Dov wrote recently:

The very phrases "Hayom al l'vovecha" and "asher Anochi metzaveh es'chem Hayom" in kriyas sh'ma are both darshened by chazal to mean that His proclamation here is new - today is the first day we have heard of it! Now, to me, this is precisely living one day at a time. It is an approach to life in kriyas sh'ma itself. It reminds me each time I say it that Hashem is concerned with how I do today. Not yesterday, nor tomorrow. Teshuva is only relevant inasmuch as it affects today's avodah. Hashem asks for one day at a time - should we ask for more?

Still, there are times that the way we understand teshuva doesn't work. It weighs us down in today's avodah. That is when I need to say, "I guess I do not understand teshuvah right now". Instead, I need to do what works right now so that I do Hashem's Will for me now. It usually turns out that what I thought was teshuvah, was really tikkun, a later part of the teshuva process that is poorly understood and often jumped into by all us guilty types to relieve the terrible burden of guilt we carry. Quite idiotic in my case. And as Chovos Hal'vavos says (right at the start of sha'ar hateshuvah), the definition of Teshuvah is behaving correctly right now even though I have screwed up badly in the past. It is not about fixing anything. Hashem fixes, or helps me fix.

In the middle-ages, yidden were motivated to behave better by remembering that malochim or worms would bust their eyeballs if they looked at lust objects; that zera l'vatola was murder of doros, etc... I have not met anyone with a long-term lust problem who actually got better by focusing on that alone. But I have met many who learned how damaged they were, and accepted that they need to treat themselves differently than they thought, because they have an allergy to lust and are hard-wired to feel that it is truly in their best interest to use schmutz or masturbate. (After all, that is exactly what it means when we feel inside that we absolutely need it, right now... isn't it? And we have all felt that way, no? That we needed it... that's why we "fall", R"l.)

Thanks Guard and kanesher.

I am rotating my perspective onto the "what can I do now" axis. I won't know Hashem's cheshbonos until I die, so might as well not worry about it now, I guess. The immediate issue of her being around is gone now, so I can gain a little distance. Today was a good day. Time to move forward.

Isn't stopping the aveiro and telling her you won't anymore Teshuva?  It's the classic case in the Rambam. 
If a person sins and goes back to the same place with the same woman alone again and does not act
on his impulses, he has done Teshuva.  I can arrange a whip lashing if you realy think that will make
you feel better.

Your honesty and ability to let out this secret is also the beginning of Teshuva and healing for you.  But as I think
we spoke about, if this is you, you have to figure out if your attraction is purely sexual or there is
really love and is she really only converting to marry you - which a lot of Rabbis will not convert.
That's up to your Rabbi, you and her.  Plus a real conversion process can take a long time.  Are you
willing to wait that long... that may be the real test?

Keep the faith, ask Hashem to provide you the right answer.

Elya

Thanks Elya for the words of encouragement.

I guess the situation is complicated because at first I felt it was just lust and I couldn't resist it. But then I figured, if I'm doing this anyway, I might as well try to bring kedusha into it, rather than seeing it as purely dirty. I almost thought that her converting and us getting married would be a sort of tikkun for the aveiros. But then again, that's not worth marrying the wrong woman. I started sharing Jewish ideas with her and we talked alot about Judaism and as I said, she met my Rav. I definitely have real feelings for her, but I think it all just gets messed up by the sex aspect.

So my thought is, if she cares enough about converting, she'll do it on her own and if the Rabbis say she's Jewish and sincere, then that's good enough for me and I won't question her commitment. Then I can make a real decision if I can spend my life with her. But now theres too much guilt and too many unknowns to keep doing what we are doing, particularly with all of our weird history that I haven't gone into here.

aryehtahor wrote on 07 Jul 2010 17:13:


Conversion is long and often difficult. Reliable Batey Din can shlep the process for years. And if there's a boy involved? Fugetaboutit! They won't do zilch unless the're sure it's not because of the boy. And this is pretty much universal policy. Yeah, maybe if she moves to Israel, never speaks to you for say, the next three years, and you're both still interested, but I mean - chances? I know the Edah requires a min. of one year living like a frum yid before conversion - living with a frum family. Of course, forget about sex. That would be a deal breaker.

I know one Bais Din that makes her swear she won't marry the boy - etc. nasty stuff like that.

Rough waters....do you really thinks he'd convert with you as a question mark?

Update on this nisayon.

She called me and wanted to see me. I said I don't feel comfortable with it. She got kind of mad, saying "you changed your mind so much etc. etc. and soon we won't have any time to be together and THAT's when you should start with this etc. etc" But I stayed firm on the phone and I hope I can continue to put my life back in order.

Kanesher you're right. There's no telling whether she'll convert in the end and anyway there are too many other possibilities before then. I'm not willing to say "she's the only one and I'll wait as long as it takes" and anyway it may never happen. So yeah. But I really want to get married but I know I'm not ready. (sigh)

Aryehtahor

Hi, it'sbeen a long time. There are very few nisyonos on this world tougher then the one you just passed. While I would not want to be in your shoes, I'm a bit jealous of your schar. Keep up the good work.

And keep being strong (If she likes you and she knows you like her that will not be her last effort to keep the relationship going).

I belive r' Moshe einstadter wrote a novel about this nisayon - "with all your heart". never read it, but he a real and reliable Rov

aryehtahor-

Wow.

I give you so much credit! I dont know how many of us would win over the nisoyon like you did! You where invited and turned it down. KOl Hackovod.  You should walk around with a smile. You did something great and now take it to the next level. 

Dont leave go - you are going up the elevator to the top. All you need to do is stay on.

Thanks everyone.

Kanesher, why shouldn't I read that book?

I should mention that that phone conversation didn't feel like a nisayon. I simply didn't want to see her with all that it entails, the guilt, the secrecy, etc.. It's when the lust starts kicking back in it will be really hard. But I'm all lusted out and have had so much sex with her recently that it didn't even feel like a real test. Maybe Hashem just helped me by removing the temptation for a while. The real struggle will be a few weeks from now when I'm lusting and THEN she'll call and that's when it will be really hard to say no. Anyway, it still feels great now to have made the right decision:)

aryehtahor wrote on 09 Jul 2010 01:33:


Nah, just meant I never read it. I heard it's about a yeshiva bachur who meets a non-jewish girl at college, and she's spiritual and wonderful and he wonders about conversion and marriage...yada yada yada....so I'm justing saying I know the gavra, not the cheftsa