good becuase you are almost late for second seder

b

This is truly beautiful, in the typical "Battleworn style" that we have all come to love so much!! I would send this as a Chizuk mail by itself. Only, without the "question marks", rather as statements!

Take 2:




This is something I have thought about long and hard.
I think that it stands to reason that if someone considers the Groups an alternative rather than a “tachbula” (see above #5) then they may be in great danger. For Ex: I know someone (not on the forum) that seems to have a very very cold attitude towards Yiddishkeit, and a very enthusiastic attitude towards the 12 steps. And I know that in his case he definitely looked at it as an alternative to Torah.

B’H all the members of the forum are Yirei Shomayim. But just sometimes (definitely not a lot of times) there are posts which seem to be saying “The only way is the 12 step way and not the Torah way, because the Torah can’t deal with addiction” At least that’s how it seems to me.

Assuming that I’m at least partially right, it would Le’choira be in place to warn people that they must have the right perspective. They have to have it very clear that the 12 steps are not an alternative to Torah but rather a way to get to Torah. What do you say to that?

The following is what I posted Chanuka time:



Again, I welcome your comments.

Dear Battle, The first tool in the GYE handbook is called "Attitude". And for that tool alone, we created a whole "Attitude handbook". Most - if not all - of the things that you wrote in reply #3 above appear in the Attitude handbook. This is indeed the first tool that anyone who has not been successful until today, needs to try. He needs to try to change his entire attitude to Yiddishkeit, to Torah and to understanding what Hashem wants from him an is purpose in the world. HOWEVER, this is only the very FIRST tool. This can be helpful for many people who have not reached more advanced stages of addiction. But the moment that the addiction has progressed a little further, attitude alone won't be enough. That is why the GYE handbook lists another 17 tools! Live SA groups is step 15! That means that before we encourage someone to go to the live groups, we try the other 14 steps first. That is the Mehalach on GYE. So those posts that you claim say that "the only way is the 12-Step way", are talking to people who have tried tool #1-#14. For such people, they MUST join a live SA group if they value their lives, if they value their Yiddishkeit, if they want to save what's left of it! London explained this very well above. And so did Boruch in the other post about Torah and the 12-Steps. People whose addictions have advanced to a certain level can not take the cure out of the Torah, in just the same way that they can't learn how to grow peppers from the Torah (even though Shlomo Hamelech could). So I don't understand the "diyun" here. You are right that before someone goes to an SA group they should try getting their attitude straight. Everyone agrees with that, that is tool #1. And if that doesn't work, they have another 14 tools to try. But if all that has still not helped, SA is the next and best tool that Hashem has blessed the world with. And anyway, SA is the ABC's of Yiddishkeit as well. It helps us develop a whole new perception of our connection with Hashem, but that can only come through the live groups. I ask you to please read Reb Dov's amazing post yesterday to "gma316" (reply #33 over here). It is a bit long, but well worth it!

Are you talking about your posts or about other people's posts? I was talking about other people's posts. Nothing at all about "the Mehalech on GYE"




I think if you read through the whole thread carefully, you'll see exactly what the diyun is. I understand that you don't have time but what can I do about that?




I don't know who you mean by "Everyone" can you explain?

One more point:




I don't know if you read #3 where I discussed this. It seems that you agree with Dov on this. (Ayin shom, you'll see that I asked a kasha on this pshat.) I would like to also know what others have to say about it.

Im ani kan, hakol kan  ;D

The post is beautiful!!! But what does it have to do with our discussion?

It explains why it takes "live groups" to develop this powerful awareness...

BTW. Battle, I need your input in this thread. I may be missing something in my answers...

I think that it shows that no matter how badly addicted one is, the answer still lies in perspective!!!

True, but every situation in life requires a particular perspective. How can one achieve the proper perspective for beating addiction? By going to those who are "melumadim" in the right perspective for this particular situation.

Second, even Dov could never have done it with perspective alone. Till today he is still joining meetings and calling sponsors. 11 years!! If it was just perspective, don't you think he would have gotten it by now? 

Rabeinu Guard, it's exactly the perspective that we were discussing over here. We are talking about addicts, and it's the same material.




On the contrary it was the meetings that gave him the perspective.

In answer to your question, the y'h never gives up. Even what we already know very well he will always try to make us forget. The musser seforim say it all the time. And that's why the M'B says that everyone is mechuyav to learn musser every day. But if you want to know if he really needs to continue going to meetings or he can move on to something bigger and better, now that's a good question. I think it may be related to the question in #6 above

Raboisai, if anyone can answer any of the questions that I asked (especially#3, #6 and #8) I would greatly appreciate it. Thank you very much!!!

Battle, you didn't answer my e-mail.