TrYiNg wrote on 22 Jun 2009 08:26:


Dear TrYiNg,
There are 2 separate explanations that I have heard and they have 2 separate conclusions. What you are saying above is the first one that I read from a book called something like "Essays from Reb Aryeh Kaplan". Mainly, that Hakodosh Boruch Hu created time and is outside of time and therefore knows our choices - but the choice is ours.

Following this line of reasoning, your correctly concluded that we have total Bechira since Hashem doesn't dictate what will happen.

What I described, is a totally different answer that is given by Breslov Chasidus that I read in the sefer B'Gan Emunah by Reb Shalom Arush. This answer holds that when looking at something "after the fact", you never had Bechira in the first place, because Hashem runs the world and he has plans for everyone and you can't do anything to change it  - period. That is real Emunah.

The one caution is that you can't use this line of reasoning at the time you are having a Nisayon, because you will use this excuse to become a Rasha and say "I might as well fail the test, because my failure is the Yediah of Hashem." That is of course ludicrous thinking, since you don't know what the Yediya of Hashem is and therefore you have to make every effort to pass all the tests you are given. Only after you failed, then you have to believe B'emunah Shelaima that you had no choice but to fail, because you can't change the Ratzon Hashem and therefore he wanted you to fail.

That is why I said that this is such a liberating concept and therefore guilt is totally removed! On the contrary, guilt is actually a sign that someone is lacking in Emunah.

With this approach, we have the question that you astutely asked below.
TrYiNg wrote on 22 Jun 2009 08:26:

Before we answer this difficult question, we have to remmember that one of the core reasons why Hashem commanded us to do Mitzvos is to bring us closer to him. The actual word Mitzvah comes from "Tzavsah", which means "closeness".

With this in mind, we can answer the question, since one has to believe that Hashem wanted you to sin because for whatever  reason, he wants from you at this point to come close to him by doing Tshuva for this specific sin that you committed. In other words, your Tikun Neshama is best performed by you doing T'shuva on this sin.

When I discussed this concept at the Shabbos table, my wife asked me anther question that I didn't have a clear answer for. She asked me if Hashem wanted us to fail because he wanted us to do Teshuva, then what happens when a person doesn't do Teshuva?

Nu, "a yid shtarbt nisht fun a kasha", a Jew doesn't die from a question he can't answer.

But if I had to choose between both answers, it smells better to say that Hashem is in complete control of the world, which results from the 2nd answer and line of reasoning, instead of just giving him the credit for knowing the future, which results from the line of reasoning in the 1st answer. In the first line, Hashem is a good fortune teller, in the 2nd line, Hashem's will is "absolute" and we can never do anything to change it!

We see from here that "guilt is tref"

I hope this helps.

Pintele Yid

I have read this post with great interest.  I will try not to stick my nose in tto much as I thing issues are being addressed properly by great people.

Pintelle, you write:



Does he bring sources directly from Rav Nachman?  If so, please include.  I am not a baki in Rav Nachman but have read quite a bit.  I do not recall seeing that yesod.  I will search through Rav Nachman's seforim for this idea. 


I do plan to touch upon bechira in the succa discussions. 

Ykv_schwartz wrote on 22 Jun 2009 21:09:


Reb Ykv,
He addresses this from Daf Reish Ayin Bais till Daf till daf Resh Ayin Zayin. He brings sources from Lekutai mitzvos perek Chuf Alef and Likutai Halochos Bais Bais"Ches. (I don't know what that means since I don't have one in front of me). I truly recommend to all of you to learn this sefer. I will give you a knew perspective of what Emunah is. It is also available in English entitled The Garden of Emunah.

[color=maroon]Dear pintele,

Assuming we believe in the second opinion,





WHAT ARE WE DOING HERE ? Puppets in a puppet show? What would be the tachlis of the world's existence? Why schar and onesh , if he was the one who caused it?
I quote you further,





How can we "become a Rasha?", if in actuality we are  not doing anything. In fact , any line of reasoning will not alter the results, so why not? And , if we believe in something, we cant pick and choose. If it's a correct idea, why not use this line of reasoning whenever you want?




Thank you . It is such a profound and beautiful answer.

"But if I had to choose between both answers," ---

I think the answer needs to be consistent,  before AND after an act . I can't make myself think one thing before commiting a sin and then another once I've done it. That isn't being truthful. I also would hate thinking of myself as a mere actor in someone's script.




Very convenient.




To explain the first position a bit better, it doesn't view the Ribono shel olam as a mere fortune teller. His greatness isn't that he knows, but rather that he gives us the chance and therfore the ability to deserve even a tiny amount of his never ending love and chasadim .

Hashem's power and will is absolute. Ein Od Milvado.  His will is that we should have the ability to choose between good and bad , (so when we do the right thing it's because we really wanted to.)

We takke can't change hashem's will. We don't have the power to actually do anything at all. It's all an allusion. But I believe that the only thing we can do , is the decision in our minds which way to go, and the rest is up to him. (If we can never change anything, what are we doing on GUE anyway,? Let hashem run his world.)


sorry about rambling on and on, just really can't internalize that viewpoint.

(Hey, if we can't change anything, you won't change my mind either. )

TrYiNg to understand....

battleworn wrote on 22 Jun 2009 11:33:


WOW. Thank you so much. That made so much sense. ;D

We discuss this issue in this page of our FAQ.

Thanks for the sources.  Can you double check the source "Lekutai mitzvos", I have never heard of that one. 
Bais Bais"Ches == basar B'chalav.  Does he say which siman?

Ykv_schwartz wrote on 23 Jun 2009 17:25:


It actually was brought down as "lamed mem". Do you know what it could be? He also didn't bring down a siman. Sorry.


TrYiNg wrote on 23 Jun 2009 08:12:


TrYing - You ask very good questions and that is why this is such a difficult concept to internalize.
On one hand, we are all pupets. Not only us, but also the greatest people in history as it says "Lev Milachim Visorim Biyad Hashem." Hashem controls the hearts of kings and nobles.

But that shouldn't disturb you since the bottom line is that you shouldn't be concerned with Hashem's plans. You can be comforted by the fact that he knows what he is doing. The only thing you have to worry about is the decisions you make and how they follow the Ratzon Hashem, the will of Hashem. Your adherence to Hashem's will be the basis of reward and punishment. Hashem won't buy the argument of the Rasha that "ultimately I did your will so I should be absolved from any wrongdoing" because you had no idea of Hashem's will at the time you made your choice.

By realizing that everything that happens to a person is the will of Hashem you end up with:
1. No guilt - just motivation to fix yourself up so you make a better choice in the future
2. No anger at anyone who wronged you - since they were just a stick (This is an old concept quoted by many)
3. Love for Hashem - Since you know that he is dealing with you on such a personal level

I can also understand your feeling that such a dichotomized view is inconsistent, but if you think about it more, you will realize that the one consistency is the will of Hashem. Before the Nisayon, the will of Hashem was there but you didn't know what it was. After the Nisayon, you find out what his will dictated.

I think in your last paragraph, you actually admit that we cannot change anything. Internalizing this concept is difficult. Once you do, then the question of what are we doing on the GUE website is answered. We are doing what we can to help us make the right decision when we are presented with a Nisayon. What happens when we are presented with one is ultimately up to Hashem, but we will get schar for trying to prepare ourselves in the event of a Nisayon, and ultimately a ton of schar when we either pass the test or dust ourselves off and get back in the ring after we fall.

Pintela Yid

I personally will recommend as well that the olam read this sefer Gan Emunah, in Hebrew or English.

Everyone will be surprised to see that we are not holding on any level in emunah p'shuta. If you read the sefer, you will see what I mean. AND....it will help you to build this connection that we are all in need of.

This idea of "before" the chet, and "afterward"  is a difficult concept for many.

Before the Chet.....we are obligated to everything, and anything not to transgess Hashem's Torah!!!

After the Chet......we failed, we sinned. We can either fall in to Atzvos, depression which is what the y"h wants and benefits him in finishing us off, OR, we can say that hashem actually sent me this N'filah for my best. Just as we learned previously.....N'filah L'tzorech Aliyah. Hashem KNOWS, (he knows all, and wants only our best), he knows that this "n'filah that HE gave us will make us turn around and.....help us to go all the way up!! (Of course we still...(after the Chet) must do our tshuva, i.e. vidui, charata etc. But, then we immediately go vaiter.

Example: Maybe someone has problems with Gayva, Ka'as etc, and Hashem knows that this N'filah,(push downwards) will humble us.

Do I really have bechirah when I am faced with an aveira? Is it really ALL up to me???

We have a Gemora that says that  Hakol Min Hashamayim Chutz M'Yiras Hashaymim. We learn from this that I....yes I am the one responsible to get enough Yira so that I will be successful in beating the y"h.

Then we have another Gemora:

It says in the Gemora that the y"h is so strong that  E'lemaleh..(if it wasn't for hashem's help we could not possible beat him.(kiddusin 30B)and, it continues that "Hashem will not leave him in the hands of the y"h". So, we see that we are dependent upon Hashem helping us to beat this deamon. So, kum tos, we are NOT the one's doing it alone because....we can't.
    So we CAN therefore say that we see from the above that I need Hashem to help me, and if I lost a battle, it must/could be that Hashem did NOT help me in this case. 

The Marshah asks:

  There is a contradiction between these 2 Gemoras. One states that it is completely dependent upon our bechira....our bechira to acquire enough Yiras Hashemayim in order to beat the y"h, and Hashem doesn't help, and yet the other Gemora states that if Hashem did not come to help us, we could not possible win.

The Marshah answers:

  The Gemorah in Kiddushin that states, "If Hashem were not to help him he could never beat him, this is referring to Habo L'Taher.....missayin Lo. The one that comes to purify themselves....Hashem comes to their aid.
 


 

Pintele Yid wrote on 25 Jun 2009 19:46:



Ykv,

Lamed Mem is Lekutai Maharan.

Sorry.

Pintela Yid

TrYiNg ,

Considering our previous discussion in this area, any thoughts on ths Chizuk e-mail #199?

" How can I ever start again fresh?

Q. I stopped looking at forbidden things a while ago. But they are still in my memory. Even if I do teshuva, my aveiros can never be erased completely. The eraser marks will still be there. The images are implanted in my memory and will never go away. I'm sick over it. Your website is like a rope being thrown to a drowning person. But it will take a lot of convincing for me to believe that there's hope. I want the memories erased. I want all my past mistakes erased without a trace, like a brand new piece of paper. I don't know if that's possible.

A. The fact that you had the will power to stop looking at forbidden things already shows that you have greatness inside you. How many people in today's world are willing to work on themselves in these areas and admit their mistakes? This is very precious in G-d's eyes.

Chassidus teaches us that a Jew has to look at the past and future as out of their hands, and to look at what we did in the past as what G-d wanted to happen. Strange as it may seem, our sins in the past were G-d's will. Only the present is in our hands. In the present, it is in our hands to decide if we want to change and do Teshuvah on the past. We can change the past only by changing our present. What that means is, that the situation you are in at this present time is exactly the situation that G-d wants you to deal with now. Look at it as if you were born at this moment, with all the images and memories already engraved in your head. G-d wants you to deal with this situation, and davka this situation.

This is also a chance for greatness, to be able to serve G-d even though the mind was already influenced by the past. If we all had pure minds and had never sinned, we wouldn't have the opportunity for growth and for Teshuvah that we have today. We wouldn't have the opportunity to pave new paths of Teshuvah and give G-d true joy. And that's why Chaza"l say; "Where Balai Teshuvah stand, even perfect Tzaddikim can't stand". This can be understood in two ways: (1) Because the Ba'al Teshuvah has a greater challenge to deal with, having already a damaged past, and (2) if the Ba'al Teshuvah succeeds in doing a true Teshuvah, then not only have they erased their past sins, but they have uplifted the sins and turned them all into holy angels, (as Chaza"l say "Zedonos nasin lo ki'zechuyos - the sins become merits")."

Pintele Yid