thanks briut, i do, but not enough, thanks for the heads up!

none of us do. that's the point. if we weren't so d**ned preoccupied with taking things into our own hands, we might have eyes to see what the other folks around us really need. that's why i have to force myself to remember there are others around me who need specific attention at specific times. including my wife. maybe especially my wife.

the old 'i just called to say i love you' exercise. it works. or, so i hear.

Thanks Briut.

I fell again today, since my falls of the past week, ive been on auto pilot, i think thats how we live in addiction (and most people in the world who aren't trying to grow spiritually). For the last few months i had pulled myself away from that and actively worked on stopping the negative and increasing the positive. Somehow, in just one week, ive become lazy again and have stopped being active about it. Recovery is just like the chazal about torah - its as difficult to acquire as precious pearls and as easy to shatter as glass (something like that, does anyone remember the source?) I must reinspire myself and retrain myself to let Hashem in all the time. Im not starting again from scratch - thats the yetser Horah/addiction talking, I just got to get off my beeehind and put in the effort and tefilloh again. (Falling is just not worth it, if only we would remember that when we're about to go...)

4 days...

so ive got a little teeny streak going again... today is the 2 year anniversary (jewish ie day after tisha b'av) of my wife catching me and the begining of my long road to recovery. i was feeling quite depressed this morning, thinking its been 2 years already and how far have i come? it didnt feel very far... before recovery i would fall about 15-18 times a month, now its down to 6/7 times. And its taken 2 long years... but then i forced myself to stop thinking like that, i thought to myself about when i started yeshiva nearly a decade ago and how far ive come inside (where its important) as well as outside. I didnt stop every day and think about how much i was growing, ive just looked back over nearly 10 years and seen that ive become a totally different person with different aspirations.

I can do streaks of 10-25 days much more often than last year as well, so why am i rushing myself, why am i expecting perfection the very next day, it hasnt worked that way with my spiritual growth so why should it with recovery. Besides, my mashgiach would always say that a slow gradual change is much more genuine then a quick one day-to-the-next one.

In conclusion, am i content with where i am? no. but does that mean i should be depressed with where i am? absolutely not!

Well said. And I have no doubt that you'll continue growing. One day at a time. We can all be clean for one minute, one hour, one day...

I just changed what I wrote. I originally wrote "one more minute, one more hour, one more day." But while that is accurate, it misses a major point. And that is that each second, minute, hour, day - they're valuable in and of themselves. Right now, if you can stay clean for today, that's not just a stepping stne to a month, or 90 days. It's also valuable because today is valuable, beyond our comprehension.

Thanks silent - very true!

i fell a couple of times yesterday, after 8 clean days and a shabbos filled with walking to and from kiddushim where i was bombarded with the thing im most suseptible to - frum women all dressed up. I was really good though, i didnt lust at all for 95% of the time, i just sang inspiring songs to myself as i walked and looked down, totally content that i was missing all the actions.
i got in the car to daven shacharis and a crazy urge to drive around lusting just came out of nowhere. I was very unprepared for that. Ive noticed im very good when ive made preparations and gedorim for what can go wrong but i seem to make excuses when something unexpected comes my way.  the 5% that i lusted on shabbos was unexpected as well and it was proper, b'iyun lusting as well, which probably triggered the crazy urge the next morning. its like im thinking i cant be expected to stand this coz i wasnt prepared for it. which is of course nonsense.

so im doing well when im prepared, but how do i train myself to react in a healthy way when an unexpected nisayon comes?

The good news is that i am recovering much faster and getting back into the game mentally and spiritually much faster. That helps a lot.

Ill expand more on what im finding dififcult about frum women tomorrow iy'H, its my main remaining stumbling block.

For me, it helps to remind myself, again and again, that this is something I don't want. I try to make that my perspective as much as possible, so that even if I'm surprised, it's easier for me to remind myself of that simple fact, and just keep on moving.

sb - thanks, that is helpful, combined with your line in yosef hatsadik's thread, thats a great mehalach. To positively and actively focus on what i want from life and to really put it into action, to split me and the yh/addiction apart so i can tell whats mine and whats his...

I fell a couple of times again today....

I said i would expand my problem. here goes... ill try and make it coherent...

1) I grew up more modern than i am now, i was friendly with girls and i loved shmoozing with them, im a more-than-average sensitive guy so i connected really well with them. I noticed that as i cut them out of my life, my addicition got steadily worse and i started to objectify real women on the street, mostly frum ones as well as the ones on the screen. I think i still miss girls in an emotional/relationship type way.

2) my wife cant really replace it for me coz she isnt so feminine, shes much more down to earth and practical, not into fashion & accesorise and stuff (which makes her a great match for me btw) but i find myself lookingaround the street to fill the feminine craving that i have, which obviously leads to other stuff.

3) im just so intrigued by them, im interested to know what they're talking about and about whats going on in their world. My wife doesn't have any of that.


Now, i totally know that the problem is with me, on an intellectual level, my wife's personality and character is a perfect, balance for me, but my emotional pull distorts all this. Im stuck for a program to move on and away from caring about whats going with frum women in general, but somehow put my pull/craving somewhere ksoher & positive.

is there anyone thats not confused? ???

We 'understand' what you mean, & emphasize with your constant struggles. Boy, do I wish I had the expertise & know-how to just point you to the path that leads out of this thick dense forest. It is extremely frustrating! Every direction you go, all you see are more trees blocking your way.


(BTW, there is a famous anecdote in chasidic lore that the Gerrer Rebbe, the Beis Yisroel, once said [in exasperation I assume], "I wanted that when you see an Isha (a woman) you should imagine that you saw a tree; instead when you see a tree you start fantising that you saw an Isha.")

Cutting women out of your life can be difficult. It sounds like you never really did that, completely.

What I mean is that when you were younger, those relationshisp weren't 100% healthy, either - but it was socially acceptable anyway. When you had to get rid of your socially acceptable lust outlet, you had to go underground. Now, you're being given a choice, a chance to be free of it!

you're right, i haven't let go completely. I want to want to...  :-\

sorry about the absence, was away for a long weekend, but back now. The stuff people posted to me in shemrias einayim non internet, really helped, as well as steve and silent battle so thanks to all you guys! Basically, i just ignored all the frum women where i was, i thought, im not interested in your life etc, i have my own and it really worked.

This morning, back in london, i was in the supermarket and i ignored the scantily clad, and felt serene whilst doing it, not feeling like missing out on anything. I had to walk past the dodgy magazines (why do they sell them in the supermarket?!?) a few times and didnt entertain the thought of looking even in their general area, no problem. My mind started to trick me - im gonna have to fall before rosh chodesh because i want a clean elul and i cant last till yomim noraim - i pushed it away, telling myself not to worry about elul, forget about it, concentrate on today. In short i had a really good quality 7 days.

until... i saw the neighbour ive mentioned before dressed really triggery, it all popped, i wont go into details for fear of triggering but that directly lead to 2 falls thereafter... i felt like i really needed her, like my life couldnt go on if i didnt have her, i hate the conflicting inner emotions, i for sure would be horrified if my wife dressed like that and yet i love it and i hate that i love it. She lives a few doors away, how do i move away from her and build myself up to not let her interfere with my progress? why cant i treat her like all the other women that i have dealt with so well in the past few weeks?

I sound like im blaming her for this, i dont mean to, i know its my problem and i cant blame her, she doesnt even know what shes doing, but i know that for some reason, shes my biggest issue at the moment...

an honest mouse wrote on 14 Jul 2010 20:28:


Two things from a screwball who has learned a few things the hard way. And I mean all that - that I am a screwball, that I have only learned a few things, and that I learned them the hard way. It is not 'humility', nor purposeful 'self-deprecation' - just the facts, as I see them. If these facts about me make it hard for you to accept what I share here as important, so be it.

OK. So, I think you might be sitting in the driver's seat way too much for your own good. I also think you are trying very hard to work the steps and recover...that is, trying very hard to do them your own way: alone. That's the green parts. "re-inspire yourself"? "Retrain yourself"? How does one do that? Haven't we always been doing just that? Isn't that all our stories alone out there till now - just out on a limb alone in the cold with our rather weak and hard-of-hearing G-d, and failing? 

Most recovering people I have met agree that they could not have worked the steps alone. They needed to be part of a group, and in real life. Maybe the virtual relationships will work for your (non-virtual) problem. But what you wrote just reminds me too much of the way I'd often talk about recovering - basically on my own. I don't know - maybe you already go to meetings regularly, make multiple phone calls daily, and speak to real people about your desires in simple honest detail...if you do, I'd suggest looking at it more closely and seeing if you are still protecting or hiding something important. If you do not, I suggest that you consider giving it a try. Exactly what do you really have to lose at this point?

I also think you are demanding/expecting what is a bit too close to 'perfection' out of yourself. What are we, after all? Strong? Brave? Smart? Hah. Most of the things I have done in addiction where simultaneously weak, fearful, and ridiculous. That's the green parts. "must"? "all the time"?

How about, "it would be better for me if I..." instead of "I must", and instead of "all the time", you can try saying "I hope to let Hashem into my life twice today. Once in the morning, and once in the evening after I come home. Twice would be miracle enough!...Maybe I'll go for once , first. I will try to do that today with Your assistance. (Then I'll see about the next day when tomorrow is over!)"

These are just suggestions. If I am coming off as a pushy pain in the butt, sorry. I don;t mean to.  I'm a bit tired. Maybe that's it...

Goodnight, chaver.

Dov, what you wrote was exactly what i needed to hear, exactly when i needed to hear it! im crying tears right now  :'( i dont know how you do it... i needed a push in the right direction, ive been floundering a bit the last few weeks. Thanks so much!

you're totally right, im keeping it too much to myself, ive just started to realise that. The ga'avoh and the laziness have been holding me back. Im going to get an accountability partner and ive just started to tell everything to one of the guys here on GYE. My therpaist also suggested emailing Rabbi Twerski about my specific frum women emotional issues.

and i am also a perfectionist, but it kinda comes from believing my wife deserves nothing less than a full recovery right away, which is obviously not practical. How do i start to beleive that baby steps are ok without feeling like im letting her down?

thanks so much for posting! you've really lifted me tonight.


ive fallen quite a bit recently, so i surprised my wife with flowers and it really helped me start to move back in the right direction - giving not taking!

thanks to dov and yosef hatzadik and their 'gentle' prodding i joined steve's call today and it was great! im hooked! it felt real to actually hear people discussing it rather than just reading about it silently on a screen. and also to be part of a chevra that is gonna try and grow towards recovery together is a really warm feeling.

right afterwards, i was dying to discuss it with my wife but i could tell she needed a breather after watching the kids so i could go on the call so i sent her for a rest. i dont know if i would've been sensitive to her need or offered it of my own accord if i hadn't just been on that call... coz i wasnt thinking selfishly...

You're Welcome! (for the thanks)

You are Welcome on the call!