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Dov
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southafricanJEW wrote on 13 Apr 2010 22:38:
Dear dov, I am not at all annoyed with your answer and appreciate your honesty, Therefore I am going to comment on your answer and I beg you to answer honestly and I need you to tell me if I am misinterpreting you. I also hope you understand that I’m trying to be as objective as I can. “You are thinking way too much. Stop it, OK”I think this is a very dangerous statement, in and of itself, secondly generally our emotions are controlled by our thinking, if we like it or not, you may as well say you are “feeling way too much stop it”, I have a feeling of guilt, I need to find out what thinking is causing this and work through it, otherwise how can I get rid of the feeling? I will be repressing my thoughts, dangerous. You may answer “addictive thinking is different” I’ll say “the need is stronger”[color] OK. I'm not one to confidently identify 'addictive' thinking, but though I agree that how we think profoundly affects our emotions, I find it hard to believe that most addicts are really in touch with the way they are thinking nearly as much as they think they are! My butt has been (figuratively) kicked for me enough times by unblinded people that I have come to admit my own weakness at seeing what is really motivating me. That was a skill I am learning but took time and the rustic, simple honesty of step-work. The main advantage of my program buddies was not their wisdom, rather it was that they are just not me. I have also met honest, sweet guys who come to their first meeting, (usually give some heartfelt sage counsel to all the regular attendees there!) and finally say, "wow, I have finally found where I belong!" They often come back for one more meeting, maybe, and say they've "got it now"...sometimes coming back in tatters after an arrest or divorce. I am talking about b'nei Torah, here, too. I do not think they are just liars. I believe that like I can be, they are apparently blind to whats cooking with them; to their own motivations and true goals. Perhaps they'd rather remain a bit comfortable and keep their drug. Who knows? Finally, I have seen that it was my own very best thinking that got me as screwed up as I became. Not anyone else's. Particularly prior to using the first seven steps, I see my own deep thinking and analysis as having been quite harmful to me. In the program we do take a long hard look at what our attitudes are and how misguided our thinking may be. But we generally do it with a sponsor or group. To do this on our own is where the entire problem is in the first place! It's a big pride pill, as far as I am concerned. So in many many cases, program people I know advocate taking the energy we are expending on trying to pridefully change ourselves by "figuring it all out and then fixing it" (a common lust/preoccupation of most people I know of who are still acting out - especially me, for years) and instead, putting that same energy (and time) into simply taking the actions of love toward our families, communities, and selves. Ultimately, that thinking was yet another self-absorbed and self-centered exercise that only made me more self-absorbed and self-centered. Not a good idea for an addict, who already uses sex-with-self and self-pleasuring as his tool to cope with life's pains! Enough is sometimes enough. For example, a few years ago (after a year or two in recovery), whenever my wife would surprisingly find me mopping or sweeping the entire house floor, she'd say, "so what are you angry about now, dov?", with a funny smile. She had discovered that when I'd get furious (usually at her), I had learned to react first by doing stuff for her without expectation of any reciprocation from her. Just shut up and give. That would often soften my pride, get a bit healthy, and help me see that our relationship was indeed precious to me. It helped open my heart a bit. I would then be more able to look at what my part in the problem was (working my 4th step with Hashem's help), ask Hashem to save me from the problem (my pride, fear, anger, etc.)(6&7), and then make my amends with the wife (9). Our relationship is far from perfect, but it is very good. And it isn't because I "worked on myself". If anything it's because I stopped working on myself and started working for (not on!) others, instead. Whew! You are truly concerned about discouraging thinking. I agree that this may be a dangerous derech if we are in Cuba or a religious cult where someone else is vying for our conscience or to control us. Then I'd say "look out!" But this secular spiritual group, with no leader, and no profit, asks for no commitment from it's members and presses no religious agenda. It's only purpose is in helping each other get sober - even without using the steps if some choose! If anyone feels endangered by that, let them joyfully go elsewhere! Hence the emphasis on the not thinking so much. But by all means, if thinking is working for you, go right ahead!
“that should I actually figure-out the answer to this types of question, there is no evidence at all that I'd successfully put the answer into any consistent practice anyway” Ok here a feel emotional, my question is not some philosophical inquiry, emotions are real. I’m either feeling regret and guilt or I’m not. Must I feel regret after I masturbate or not?, it is not an activity that requires “consistent practice” Some one who is becoming frum is entitled to know if he should feel regret for becoming religious slowly. The same holds true for me. Frankly, this part really does sound like it'd be a futile thinking exercise for me. Perhaps I am really not getting what you mean. But perhaps my last megillah will deal with what you are touching on here. If I get what you mean. Sorry. [quote] “3- In general, I need more action, less thinking.” Correct me if I’m wrong but you seem to be answering that I shouldn’t think about it, i.e. the question of guilt, in other words, the answer is I DON’T NEED TO FEEL GUILTY WHEN I MASTURBATE, and if this is true obviously Hashem doesn’t want me to regret doing it either. (if this is what you mean then you will be taking a great burden off my chest). Youch! I don't recommend masturbation as a way to fill the big empty hole in ourselves. But I am not one to tell others not to use their drug. That's your business and i - not being G-d - can't stop you anyway! Speeches and guilt simply do not work at all for me or for anyone I know. OK, so seriously: What business is it of mine whether you feel guilty about it? If I feel guilty about anything I am doing I have learned that I'd better learn how to stop doing it or soon I'll hurt so much I will have to act out. And to act out is to die. So I learn how to improve every department of my life by selfish necessity (and agonizingly slowly :!)
“The reason every day is a no masturbation day for me is not because I am strong at all. It's a miracle. Hashem helps me not to have the nisayon at all most of the time. It is in the stupid little nisyonos that I need to work to surrender - I give up!....” This paragraph is all about the 12 steps I don’t find this approach speaks to me, I have been using the approach of this site www.sexualcontrol.com. (there is a link to it on gye) I understand that many people have overcome addiction through the 12 steps, but it is not for me. I hope you are open minded enough to understand that there are other successful paths. So do I. If it is coming across that I am not, please let me know and I'll do my best to think about it.....just kidding. :-*
“ do not focus on the issura for me - it is sakanta and therefore way more serious than issura, as the gemara states. This lust garbage ruins my life and will kill me. The main issue is the sakanta, not the issura, for me (b"H).” Let me ask you something if a doctor (chas veshalom a million times) informed you that in a few years you are going to suffer a long, terrible, painful death with intense misery. Would you be able to simply focus on something else and be content? Rather hard to do don’t you think? Someone who believes in films like “the seal of truth” and can masturbate with out focusing on punishment does not truly believe it. Secondly I can relate to the harm addictive masturbation causes, but what about natural masturbation? This is a very controversial topic, but sorry it needs to be addressed. I can tell you that I posted my question over here www.guardureyes.com/GUE/RTwerski/Can'tStop.asp to the very site that guard quoted from and they told me that I was being very rational and that natural masturbation can not be treated like addictive masturbation. Natural masturbation is a chok from Hashem, Hashem’s love motivates me for this. You are really bringing all my worms out of the can with this one, but here goes: If it were only masturbation (including the issur, spiritual/mental/interpersonal damage that it causes and its onesh as I understand them all in my heart) that I considered my big problem, I doubt I'd have ever stopped. I went on with it for years and cried my eyes out, ripped my ego to shreds with guilt and shame, fasted, mikvah'd and tikkun'd my brains out - all the while hiding and carefully guarding my dirty secret. I never actually gave it up and did what I really needed to stay quit until the problem became much more to me than "just" losing my olam haba, "more" than going to gehinnom, and "more" than being tied in a knot with fire burning at both its ends. Apparently, I had to come to see that I couldn't continue one more step in my double life, or I'd lose my G-d, my morality, and my entire world as I knew it. I liken myself in this prat to Iyov, who R"l lost all his kids, estate and stuff, but never cracked - that is, until he got tzora'as. The meforshim explain that when it finally touched his very body - what he identified with at the deepest personal level, he couldn't take it any more. Am I saying I had no emunah? That I really didn't take the onashim warned of in chazal seriously, etc..? Perhaps yes. I do not really know - nor do I care. Perhaps if I really believed it all b'chush, it'd been po'el more in my heart to stop me. But the pain of the lusting lifestyle is what stopped me - not the aveiro. And I am not alone: When the great Tanna RYB"Z (I think) was dying, he advised his students to learn how to have an awareness of Hashem's presence that is as powerful as the simple presence of a man in the room with them. They said, "That's it?". He answered:, "ummmm. Hellooo! Hal'vai they should be the same for (you) people!" (cynical dramatization added by me!) Now, perhaps I totally misinterpret this story and surely there is some m'forash that takes it out of the apparent p'shat. But it seems valid and plain to me. I actually expected myself to be greater in simple emunah than these great people! What unbridled ga'avah. In fact, it seems that my very pride itself was always my worst enemy: It always told me that I could really stop (a lie), and that I was therefore a loser for ever failing! Back to my point: In general, in my emotions - my heart - my reality - the seriousness of aveiros, per se', simply does not even come close to the shame of actually being caught or paying in an immediate way for a mistake. And takanos and k'nasos are artificial, BTW. Natural consequences teach. I am not interested in whether this is apikorsus or just a shanda - only in the functional truth. As you put it, "without honesty we are doomed." I am sober today as a result of this derech, it seems, and my life (and family members' lives) has been improving in ways I'd never have even wished for, in every respect. I have far to go, but every year is definitely far better than one before, which is kind of bizarre given what kind of goofball I am. I hope that was clear, whether you see it my way or not. Right backatcha, Dov PS. I don't know what 'natural masturbation' is, nor have I ever heard of that guilt-ridding movie you quoted above, sorry. But the entire topic of an acceptable kind of masturbation is too complicated for me. That's the poison, especially in early recovery. Any playing around with this thing (no pun intended) is unsafe for me. I pity the day I start to redefine and complicate my sobriety definition that way. I might as well just flush my head down the toilet right now rather than wait around as my ego and pride re-inflates to insidiously ruin my life and screw up my family. That's just me.
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