Tried-123 wrote on 13 Apr 2010 01:30:




Hoping I am not going too far into a place I don't belong (probably never a good idea):
Tried brings up a painful point: If whatever I was using lust for is not replaced with something as effective as lust was, I will be left stranded and feel even worse than before! Ahhhh!!!

Am I saying ka'inyan here? 

So that is where the Steps come in: the steps (spelled-out in the 12th, if we haven't yet figured it out by then) are specifically aimed to develop my relationship with Hashem to the level that it completely fills in what's missing in my life. Sound crazy? It should. Well, it's no crazier than using magazines, schmutz and sex with self (masturbation) to do it!! Especially since that always makes us nuts and leaves us in even more self-centered stupidity than before...

In the meantime there are eitzos that come from the first 3 steps like gratitude lists; clearly and directly asking Hashem to "please really give me whatever it is that I am really looking for in this desire right now to stare at that woman, look at that schmutz, mast..., etc - Please let me find it in You! (eventually)"; to call a safe friend up and clearly admit exactly what it is that I secretly plan to do...uncomfortable? Good. We are only as sick as our secrets, they say; having a chevra to openly declare the truth about (and to remember) my tendencies, is indispensable to me, etc. They all are noveiya from the first three steps, but knowing other folks who use these tools somehow makes it easier for us to actually start using them ourselves.

If my weak point is only mas'ting (no p'graphy no phone things... nothing....)
Should i join an SA group?

"The only requirement for membership is a sincere desire to stop lusting" - White Book, page something-or-other (amud beis)  ;D

The question I'd ask is: "is it overkill to go to SA meetings?" And I'd say it depends on one thing: is what you are doing now working, or not? if it is, why go? And if it isn't, why not? That's my feeling. For anyone to say "you must go" they have to be nuts, crazy, or just plain insane, or think they are G-d or something like G-d...fortunately, I am just goofy!

Are you sure that there are no down sides?

There are some who say that people are exposed to far worse types of acting out when they go to meetings (I say they'll figure it all out eventually anyway); that they are exposed to christian ideas in the 12 steps (I say they are all Jewish); that the meetings are often in churches - which is either ossur or somehow influences members to believe in avodah zarah (I say it's better than being another frum yid in the newspaper getting caught five years hence in "shady behaviors" and/or getting divorced - and not ossur anyway); that they can't possibly learn about Hashem from goyim (they'd rather learn about Hashem only from frum guys who learn in the beis midrash in the day and go to prostitutes at night, than from goyim who do it, apparently), and other issues. I just say, "phooey"...somehow in a respectful way....not really. 

NU. Perhaps there is al mi lismoch either way, as with many things in life. The question is as you stated it: Do I need it?

Ask a rov, I guess...and ask Hashem to help him. Hatzlocha!

Love,

Dov

Dear dov,
I would love to know your opinion on a question that has been raised.
If this whole “gradual” thing works for me do I have to feel guilty for when I do things that are not within my current level. i.e if I masturbate on days that aren’t allocated as “no masturbation” days.
I think (as I wrote above) that guilt is out of place because guilt is part of regret, but if I tried harder to fight on those days then it would be “cold turkey” which in the long run will not work for me. So how can I regret doing the best thing under the circumstances?
I feel a deep desire and longing for the day when I am strong enough for every day to be “no masturbation days”
Do you think makes sense?
I really need to know because I start feeling guilty for not feeling guilty.
thanks

I know that this question is addressed to dov. I also know that dov told me to keep my nose out since I haven't been able to help myself.

I would like to say something even so.
Firstly one of my machlos is also mas( I  am not sure why we don't spell it out. I think it is a certain shame).

I go to sleep with it . Anytime I have any stress this takes it away. I am clean for two weeks and I can't sleep at night and I am generally not myself . Over the years I have tried everything.

Therfore even though I don't know what works, I do know what doesn't work.

An analogy to other lifes challenges have been brought and compared to this issue. It is not comparable. Reb volbe in his shaar avodas hamusar disscusses wich issues you can work in steps(I am not talking about the twelve steps). On this specefic issue he says you have to go cold turkey.

A person who is still holding on to his ratzon to lust will never be free. Our problem is that we want this, and this craving is stronger than anything else.

On the ON days you will do everything , and it will even be mitzva so on the clean days you can be clean! It will not work.

What we are all missing is motivation and belief that we can do it. I am only here two weeks but I see other people that are the same or worse. This motivates me and gives me a confidence that I can do it.

I know I will fall but so have many people here. In the end they won however.

The only way to win this is when we see the horror of this. Some people here were privleged to see the look of horror on their spouses face when they were caught. Maybye that is what we are missing. The feeling of how repugnant these things really are.

I am asking a favor that that when I will be discouraged tomorrow or the next please remind of what I said. That is what this is all about holding each other up.

Sincerely frumfiend

You reminded me of something else - you're absolutely right, we DO feel more relaxed when we're not clean, because on a physiological level, being mz"l releases pleasurable chemicals in our bodies. It's quite honestly, a drug, one that we've gotten used to. For years (for many of us, most of our lives), we haven't really gotten used to really living life without this crutch. And we need to start dealing with issues, instead of just medicating ourselves. Will we be more stressed because of it? Quite possibly. But now, we finally have a chance to deal with the issues that are bothering us, causing the stress.

And if we keep giving in when it gets too much, that just keeps us addicted for longer.

Dear frumfiend, thanks for your opinion,
The distinction has to be made between “”gradual growth” being against the Torah in this area verses “gradual growth” not practically working. to quote my self


The truth is that the “gradual approach” seems to be a lot more conventional then I thought,
My religious psychologist said that I have a healthy attitude now, and “gradual growth” is even in the handbook.
I doubt that Rav Volbe would say that if someone knows that if he takes the “cold turkey” approach he will fall into the depths of destruction and addiction that he should just take the” cold turkey approach anyway.

With regard to if it practically works, from age 13 to 21, I used the “cold turkey” approach I fell into a prison of darkness and destruction. From 21 I started the “gradual approach, I have since broke free from the terrible prison, BH!
I don’t use a filter any more! I hardly ever feel like porn, and if I do, I love staring my pc “in the eye” and choosing life! (when I controlle myself correctly it is not painful it’s invigorating)
And I even masturbate (I said it) a lot less.
Why must I choose death over life?

My real question that bothers me is this guilt thing.
(please don’t reply that the fact that I worry about it means that on a subconscious level I know I’m wrong, I often feel guilty when I shouldn’t)

southafricanJEW wrote on 13 Apr 2010 11:31:


Zees SouthafricanJEW,

I am honored to have a question from you. Thanks!

Please forgive me, but I will say what my sponsor and mentors said to me maybe a hundred  times when I asked stuff just like this:

"You are thinking way too much. Stop it, OK?" 

Now, this is a very annoying thing for me to hear, until I admit that:
1- I am not really as smart as all that anyway;
2- that should I actually figure-out the answer to this types of question, there is no evidence at all that I'd successfully put the answer into any consistent practice anyway;
3- in general, I need more action, less thinking.

OK. So, here are some more annoying things for you, since you seem to have taken that last one so well  ;D :

The reason every day is a no masturbation day for me is not because I am strong at all. It's a miracle. Hashem helps me not to have the nisayon at all most of the time. It is in the stupid little nisyonos that I need to work to surrender - I give up! I can't beat even this stupid little desire to stare at my pretty coworker down the hall or to follow the woman's face in the car driving next to mine, or to look into that newspaper at the last article about a teacher who ran off with her student - all very toxic stuff for me...I can't afford to look at them at all because I will definitely eventually go from there to the next level - even though in my present state of mind I could never imaging myself going to the "next level down"....but I know that shockingly, my state of mind will radically change because I have this illness and that is what happens. I won't be fooled again, be"H.

Does this make sense to you? That is where I am holding.
It is not a madreiga at all...but if it was, I wouldn't concern myself with it. Figuring out my madreiga is always so poisonous for me that it's just like lusting - I can't afford it, so be"H I don't do it. I befeirush ask Him to help me, and I keep realistic. That way, the battlelines - if there are any at all - are always way, way back from what you'd call "the danger zone". But for me, I need to recognize and admit that the "little stuff" is the only danger zone, now. Or I am toast, for sure.

And BTW, "not looking" because it is an aveiro only causes me to guilt about it more, which guarantees failure later on - I know that cuz it awlays did! I do not focus on the  issura for me - it is sakanta and therefore way more serious than issura, as the gemara states. This lust garbage ruins my life and will kill me. The main issue is the sakanta, not the issura, for me (b"H).

Two more thingies. Choosing "no mast.. days" puts little me way deep into the driver's seat. Too much for me to handle at all. An ikkar of recovery is that i do not run it. I work it, but do not run it.

And finally, whenever people use the term, "the long run", I want to ask them what they mean by that. To me, "the long run" only exists in hindsight. I try not to fool myself that I have a shaychus to it, at all. I fooled myself long enough into working on "the long run"! Not any more. In fact, there is no way I can actually do anything for tomorrow. All I can really do today is: live today as right as I can with Hashem's help. That is the only insurance "tomorrow" will ever have, period. That's why, tempting as it may be while davening each day, I do not ask for Hashem to keep me sober for any time longer than this very day. And it's been a bunch of years, thank-G-d...in the long run.

OK, one more thing related to all this regarding "The gradual approach". Does anyone really think going "cold turkey" is really "cold turkey"? Does the change within us ever occur quickly? Yes, if I am an addict and still using my drug, I will not grow very much because using it will keep bringing me back into dependence. And in my opinion, dependence is like pregnancy - if I need it once in a while that means I am dependent on it. On the other hand, many do get less and less extreme in their dependence and then wean off their drug completely, it seems. One day, they will still have to really, really quit - and I guess it will still feel like "going cold turkey". It's never pretty and seamless, though.

Sof davar, we do not really quit forever. What is "forever", anyway? We just give up right now, and openly depend on the G-d who created heaven and earth to keep us sober today without asking about tomorrow. Cheshbonos rabim never helped me at all, certainly not binasi. 

Rage ATM wrote on 13 Apr 2010 19:23:


Rage, I love you. And your machine. And your, er, candor.
But I wonder sometimes if we all remember that we're not ALONE here.
There are unregistered lurkers who read everything we say.
Including those followers of mazalim and kochavim who might prefer a more refined tone for these references.
After all, it's to large degree THEIR golus in which WE live.

I'm not so concerned about what you said; I just wanted to remind the oylam that we're mechuyav to be mechazek in our hakaras hatov to the medina. Ha'mayveen mahvin. Vershtest?

That's all, gentlemen. Back to the tirade as you wish.

Ach, another GOLD post from king Dov.... (why do his posts make me want to cry? WUSS!)

As far as learning about G-d from goyim, they only mean learning trust and dependence on a higher power that is all-powerful... They don't mean learning to "let go and let purple bunny".

See tool #14 of the GYE handbook (just posted an updated version yesterday!)

guardureyes wrote on 13 Apr 2010 19:49:


I THINK I FOUND A NEW MOTTO FOR MY SCREEN SAVER! "Let go and let purple bunny!!"  I LOVE IT. Guard, u da man.

Rage! Now, wait a purple cotton-tailed-pickin'-minute!

Breathe...relax, breathe...relax....OK....I'm better now.

Wait a second, please, Mr. Rage, sir. I was just listing the compunctions I have heard from some people about 12-step meetings. Among the issues is the incomprehensibility that "a yid - a talmid chochom yet" - might go to learn about G-d from a bunch of heathens. (The fact that the yid - a talmid chochom yet - might be engaging daily in sex with self, massage parlors, exposure, schmutz-by-the-hour-on-the-internet when "no one" is watching, lying to the spouse and everyone else for alibis, etc...that doesn't disqualify him as "a yid - a talmid chochom yet"...nu. Hah. To me, that's really purple-bunny-rabbit-thinking! Of course I did that for years, too! )

The meetings are not exclusive to our co-religionists. They will treat goyim and yiddin as equals. Catholics and Mormons (who each believe the other is going to hell), yiddin and atheists, Republicans and Communists (Oops! I meant Democrats, sorry!), Muslims and Moslems (?)...all are under a common denominator: humans powerless to win al derech ha-teva. They teach each other how to let go of their own power and admit they are not G-d and neither is the woman, man, or body-part that they were always revering! Then they give members the room to pick their own G-d and help them become an emloyee of that Higher Power, putting their will and lives in It's care, not theirs. All along, not asking them exactly how they define "G-d"! The only issue faced in the Program is that I am not G-d and neither is alcohol, heroin, Lust, Crack, Carol Channing, Carl Malden (ewww...), rage (not you, Rage) or anything else that is destructive to me.

Technically, the meetings are secular. Spiritual but not religious. If you look up the definition of secular, you will see AA/SA, as I experienced it. It doesn't teach us anything at all, about G-d. Nothing. It teaches us about ourselves, and that's apparently enough to let G-d in. Boruch Hashem, I found recovery in a secular program. Ther was room for a frum yid, and I can share it with anybody! And I do!

Now here's this little guy's personal pitch: just cuz you homeboys all have GYE now, don't get too spoiled and go around imagining that your way is the only way, OK? The gayva might sneak right in through the shteible fire escape and bite you in the tuchis.

And don't think so much! Bahhhh!!!!!

Dear dov, I am not at all annoyed with your answer and appreciate your honesty, without honesty we are doomed.
Therefore I am going to comment on your answer and I beg you to answer honestly and I need you to tell me if I am misinterpreting you. I also hope you understand that I’m trying to be as objective as I can.

“You are thinking way too much. Stop it, OK”I think this is a very dangerous statement, in and of itself, secondly generally our emotions are controlled by our thinking, if we like it or not, you may as well say you are “feeling way too much stop it”, I have a feeling of guilt, I need to find out what thinking is causing this and work through it, otherwise how can I get rid of the feeling?
I will be repressing my thoughts, dangerous.
You may answer “addictive thinking is different” I’ll say “the need is stronger”

“that should I actually figure-out the answer to this types of question, there is no evidence at all that I'd successfully put the answer into any consistent practice anyway”
Ok  here a feel emotional, my question is not some philosophical enquiry, emotions are real I’m either feeling regret and guilt or I’m not. Must I feel regret after  I masturbate or not?, it is not an activity that requires “consistent practice” Some one who is becoming frum is entitled to know if he should feel regret for becoming religious slowly. The same holds true for me.

“3- In general, I need more action, less thinking.”
Correct me if I’m wrong but you seem to be answering that I shouldn’t think about it, i.e. the question of guilt, in otherwords, the answer is I DON’T NEED TO FEEL GUILTY WHEN I MASTURBATE, and if this is true obviously Hashem doesn’t want me to regret doing it either. (if this is what you mean then you will be taking a great burden off my chest)

“The reason every day is a no masturbation day for me is not because I am strong at all. It's a miracle. Hashem helps me not to have the nisayon at all most of the time. It is in the stupid little nisyonos that I need to work to surrender - I give up!....”

This paragraph is all about the 12 steps I don’t find this approach speaks to me, I have been using the approach of this site www.sexualcontrol.com. (there is a link to it on gye) I understand that many people have overcome addiction through the 12 steps, but it is not for me. I hope you are open minded enough to understand that there are other successful paths.

“ do not focus on the  issura for me - it is sakanta and therefore way more serious than issura, as the gemara states. This lust garbage ruins my life and will kill me. The main issue is the sakanta, not the issura, for me (b"H).”

Let me ask you something if a doctor (chas veshalom a million times) informed you that in a few years you are going to suffer a long, terrible, painful death with intense misery.
Would you be able to simply focus on something else and be content? Rather hard to do don’t you think? Someone who believes in films like “the seal of truth” and can masturbate with out focusing on punishment does not truly believe it.
Secondly I can relate to the harm addictive masturbation causes, but what about natural masturbation? This is a very controversial topic, but sorry it needs to be addressed.
I can tell you that I posted my question over here www.guardureyes.com/GUE/RTwerski/Can'tStop.asp to the very site that guard quoted from and they told me that I was being very rational and that natural masturbation can not be treated like addictive masturbation. Natural masturbation is a chok from Hashem,
Hashem’s love motivates me for this.

Dov, I will be very grateful if you respond to my points, please try make them easy for simple people like me to grasp. You are doing me a great chessed for helping me thank you from the bottom of my heart.