Your words are black, my words are blue...
Together we'll be giving you guys a 'black and blue'...
(stolen from Dov)

"Yes, all you guys are really making this into a memorable thread!"
Yes Indeed...

"And Tried, I really liked your words....."
Absolutely... Tried is The best, _{(and he's humble too....)}

"The easiest way to succeed is NOT to aim for 90 days, but to aim for just 1 day, and then repeat 90 times."
Wow Wow this is a quote for the record.... :-*

"Does that make any sense?"
Hu...? Sense....?
It's absolute awesomeness!!

{Get to know Tried....  He can get carried away when he is excited _{(or complimented)}} :o

Dear Commando,

Why stop there, chaver? The very phrases "Hayom al l'vovecha" and "asher Anochi metzaveh es'chem Hayom" in kriyas sh'ma are both darshened by chazal to mean that His proclamation here is new - today is the first day we have heard of it! Now, to me, this is precisely living one day at a time. It is an approach to life in kriyas sh'ma itself. It reminds me each time I say it that Hashem is concerned with how I do today. Not yesterday, nor tomorrow. Teshuva is only relevant inasmuch as it affects today's avodah. Hashem asks for one day at a time - should we ask for more?

Still, there are times that the way we understand teshuva doesn't work. It weighs us down today's avodah. That is when I need to say, "I guess I do not understand teshuvah right now". Instead, I need to do what works right now so that I do Hashem's Will for me now. It usually turns out that what I thought was teshuvah, was really tikkun, a later part of the teshuva process that is poorly understood and often jumped into by all us guilty types to relieve the terrible burden of guilt we carry. Quite idiotic in my case. And as Chovos Hal'vavos says (right at the start of sha'ar hateshuvah), the definition of Teshuvah is behaving correctly right now even though I have screwed up badly in the past. It is not about fixing anything. Hashem fixes, or helps me fix.

In the middle-ages, yidden were motivated to behave better by remembering that malochim or worms would bust their eyeballs if they looked at lust objects; that zera l'vatola was murder of doros, etc....I have not met anyone with a long-term lust problem who actually got better by focusing on that alone. But I have met many who learned how damaged they were, and accepted that they need to treat themselves differently than they thought, because they have an allergy to lust and are hard-wired to feel that it is truly in their best interest to use schmutz or masturbate. After all, that is exactly what it means when we feel inside that we absolutely need it, right now...isn't it? And we have all felt that way, no? That we needed it.....that's why we "fall", R"l.

Nu, too tired to ramble on...hope it made some sense to somebody and didn't offend c"v.

Love,

Dov

Interpretation of Dov:

To see it as murder/destroying future doros, was used in the past by great people to keep them clean.
We tend not to get helped by this realization alone.

But the way people have gotten helped is by being humble and realizing/admitting that they are damaged and are allergic to lust, and then accepting a new way of dealing with the problem (seemingly not gradual).

Hope I got this one right....
(but based on my track-record with Dov, I probably misinterpreted him)

Oh well....

Wow! You got it! I'd give myself up, if I were you....

Caveat: Tried-123 wrote on 12 Apr 2010 04:52:


The mindset may not feel gradual, but putting it into action is gradual. And we grow gradually in the attitude, too. It's weird, but it works. Like many people at my job....oops!

Blue!!

Gradual or long term are just mind tricks.  They are not at all intelectual. The whole idea of goals is actualy not intelectual, it is just to help a person focus. One has to learn how to juggle both. When the long term becomes depressing focus on the short term when, even that is to hard focus on the past etc. Its just mind juggling. The main idea is don't become hyperfocused on anything. No nervousnes or anxiety.

The chovos halvovos in shaar avodas elokim says explicitly that a person needs both

Reminds me of the two papers in the pocket from R' SimchaBunim...bishvili nivra Olam, and anochi ofor vo'efer (or was it afilu yitush kadmecka?...i guess I need more of that paper right now! ;D)

frumfiend wrote on 12 Apr 2010 16:19:


Gradual vs. Long Term is not merely a matter of mind tricks....

The question is:

Experience has shown me that when I try to quit all at once (cold turkey) it is too difficult, too much, does not last, is not sustainable, and it actually makes me more prone to act out (think of a spring in a box)....

Do I use a cold turkey approach anyway as Guard suggested (Because I only focus on today...), or do I take my long term growth into account and try to do a bit better than yesterday etc. and not over-restrict myself (since it has always backfired)....

This is a somewhat intellectual question...

A person has to have a long term goal for two reasons.

one without a goal a person loses focus. Two the goal of one day is not sufficient incentive.

On the otherhand the emotional trauma of accepting to change long term is very difficult.

we therfore are shiaaf yearn to reach that long term goal but we trick ourselves that we are not diong anything to activly pursue this goal.

Meanwhile we sneak in the short term objective.

When the short term starts to feel stupid we remind ourselves with obligating ourselfes that maybye we will reach the big goal. We than regain our prespective .

Ask any millionare, his goal was to be a millionare but he was happy with every penny he made.


In other words we want big but we are not a all or nothing baby that when we don't get there we say, you see we didn't get anywhere.

Remember reb boruch ber said that he tried to be reb akiva eigar. So really he failed at his lifes goal. hu!

No offence to the great Reb Boruch Ber zt"l, but Reb Zushia taught me not to try to be Reb Zushia...harbei drochim....

I have always wondered how different our drashos about bechirah, sobriety, and working on ourselves would be after we are actually sober for a year. It seemed that I knew so much, yet what I knew didn't actually work!

After a year of sobriety, I was actually less educated: I knew more clearly that I knew so little, was so limited, and so weak....but sober.

Nu. Lower but actually working has to be worth something!

dov wrote on 12 Apr 2010 18:23:


As usual I didn't catch everything you said... but on the above I would have to say that you have a very valid point....

I can not say what does or doesn't work to stay totally abstinent for a year... Because I have not yet been abstinent for a year..... :-[ :-[

All I know is that I have never succeeded in anything when I tried taking it on all at once... It has always made things more complicated...

On the other hand I know that I have succeeded in things that I tried to simply do a bit better and a bit better etc. (mainly by working on the underlying causes as apposed to fighting blindly...)

One example would be getting to sleep on time. If I forced myself to get to sleep at the right time... no luck..

If however I worked on getting into the habit of getting ready on time and than allowing myself flexibility... It got me sleeping earlier than before (but still quiet late...)

After that I tried figuring out why I feel a need to stay up... I realized that I didn't want to face my loneliness... Once I knew that, I began trying to find ways to feel less lonely (I call a friend every night after I take care of the things I needed to do before going to sleep... I would then give myself the same flexibility with time... )
I found that I was getting to sleep much earlier (still not the ideal time, but a heck better than before. I saw real tangible long lasting change. Not perfection but improvement...)

This is but one personal example... I have tried this approach in many areas... with success (Not perfection)...

Just sharing what seems to work for me in other areas... I am still working on trying to apply this to Mast******

Peace and Love to all....
To each his own....

A few thoughts come to mind. One is that part of this whole trap is that we think that we're totally caught, that we can't possibly survive if we stopped masturbating. Like Tried123's example of trying to go without food and water. We've convinced ourselves that we're in the same boat. But the truth is that one day at a time, we can be sober, and find ourselves living a happier life, day by day!

Second, what would we think of an alcoholic who used the same line of reasoning? Involved in behavior that is ruining his life, he nods solemnly and informs us that from now on, he's not going to drink anymore on mondays, tuesdays, and thursdays. "I'd love to stop cold turkey," he says, "but I don't think I can handle that!"

What would you say to this man? How about if he was addicted to heroine?

Thirdly, as Dov always says, the problem isn't how bad the aveirah is - the question you need to ask is, "is this poision for me?" And for me, the answer is - yes.

So, since I don't like poison, I stay clean. And I remind myself that I'm happier in every way, living life like this! Life doesn't become more difficult, it becomes easier!

Tried-123 I think I am on a very similar path to you, my experience has also taught me that if I take on to much, I fall all the way down, how can we ignore our own experience knowing where it will lead us? I think that is foolish and I don’t think that’s what Hashem wants. One can argue that our thoughts are just “addictive thinking”, which is why I had a long and expensive appointment with a well known frum phycologist. He said that I have chosen a very healthy approach and that it is good that I view my self like a I baalteshuva trying to keep shaboss.

I have never heard of someone becoming frum “cold turkey” 
It seems a lot of people find that “cold turkey” woks for this addiction, so I daven for there success in the path they choose but for me it is one bad idea, I know this from pure experience.
The hardest thing for me to deal with is not porn or addictive masturbation but natural masturbation, i.e. the masturbation urge that I feel even when I am happy and content, the urge of being a healthy male. I have deep, terrible guilt, associated with this type of masturbation. With porn if I slip I can feel guilty and move on, but not this.
For addictive things I am motivated partly buy the damage its causes, like Dov said, but to strive to overcome my natural drive, which is not harmful on a physical and emotional level, sorry if people get offended by me saying that but im not saying that therE isn’t spiritual damage.
Also when I focus on the “spiritual stuff” I freak out big time, that movie “the seal of truth” has probably been more harmful to me then any Hollywood movie I have ever seen in my life, any one who has issues with guilt don’t watch it! (by the way I don’t know what happened to tinuk shnishbar and people’s point of bechira in that film, it seems to have been conveniently ignored.)  focusing on the “so called” fact that I will be publically humiliated and tortured first thing in shomuyim for masturbation doesn’t motivate me it makes me angry, depressed lonely, scared etc, all the emotions an addiction needs.

MOST IMPORTANTLY I UNDERSTAND THAT HASHEM WAN’T’S ME TO TRY STOP, OR LIMIT AS MUCH AS I CAN. I HAVE NO IDEA WHY, BUT HASHEM LOVES ME AND I LOVE HASHEM AND HE KNOWS WHATS BEST FOR ME.
THEREFORE I WILL TRY MY BEST BUT I NEED TO DO THIS IN STEPS OTHERWISE ALL IS LOST.  AS TREID-123 SAID ONE’S EMOTION’S BEHIND THE ACTIONS NEEDS TO BE ADRESSED. MY MOTIVATION IS THERE FOR A LOVING RELATIONTIOP TO THE INFINITLY CARING CREATER OF ALL.

Sorry for all my rantings I just have a lot of emotion regarding this whole thing

I would like to officially thank all participants of this thread, I feel a lot better from it, and I am very grateful.
I better go to sleep it’s very late!

N.B silentbattle I read your post as I was typing I have to respectfully disagree, this is from Wikipedia: “
Sudden withdrawal from drugs such as alcohol, benzodiazepines and barbiturates can be extremely dangerous, leading to potentially fatal seizures. In long-term alcoholics, going cold turkey can cause life-threatening delirium tremens and thus is not an appropriate method for breaking an alcohol addiction

SB is black I am blue...
together it's a black and blue...
(But this one really is a black and blue...)

Part of this whole trap is that we think that we're totally caught, that we can't possibly survive if we stopped masturbating. Like Tried123's example of trying to go without food and water. We've convinced ourselves that we're in the same boat. But the truth is that one day at a time, we can be sober, and find ourselves living a happier life, day by day!

First my example did not imply not existing. I gave an example of full survival. But on a level that can not be sustained for me...

What you are saying, may not apply to everyone...

I sincerely believe that I am not convincing myself...
I am basing what I say on a long track record...



Second, what would we think of an alcoholic who used the same line of reasoning? Involved in behavior that is ruining his life, he nods solemnly and informs us that from now on, he's not going to drink anymore on mondays, tuesdays, and thursdays. "I'd love to stop cold turkey," he says, "but I don't think I can handle that!"

What would you say to this man? How about if he was addicted to heroine?

If his track record proves that quiting everything at once will have him right back where he started... than by all means he should not embark down that path... It will be counterproductive....


So, since I don't like poison, I stay clean. And I remind myself that I'm happier in every way, living life like this! Life doesn't become more difficult, it becomes easier!
For me it would become more difficult because I would be left with more frustration, despair, pressure, failure, and I would be right back where I started...

_{(I was a bit frustrated by your post...)}

southafricanJEW wrote on 13 Apr 2010 00:40:


Same for me....

I'm not saying we should expect to be perfect, and consider ourselves terrible if we're not.

However, I know that if I decided beforehand that as soon as the urge becomes "overwhelming," it's OK if i give in, well, then I'd have given in many times over the last few months. There were numerous times when I literally felt an overwhelming urge. But I was able to walk away from that urge. And not because i expect myself to be perfect - if I try to think about never giving in, I'd probably fall that day. But for right now, no matter how overwhelming the urge is, I can go do something else. Not fight it, but avoid it.