Hi Reb Gue and the Rest of Us

Many years ago, I'd say about 4 years ago there was a certain girl who was in one of university classes. She caught my attention as soon as I saw her but as a decent obesrvant Jew, I always avoided her. I avoided those girls I found to be attractive. This particular girl was really pretty and even many years later I still think about her looks and stupidly hope that I will find someone who is as pretty. That will not happen. When I find someone, I am sure that they will be attractive but not in the same way nor should they be. Unless we live in an absolutely closed environment, we will always see attractive women but the issue is how do we handle it when we find them to be particularly attractive in the sense we have a "crush" on them. How does one move on and keep one's mind focused on reality and not sensuality.

This is not the forum for religious debate but I am expecting responses to say that "Well you should not have gone to university" etc. The truth, as I see it, is that Yeshiva and Kollel did not save many of you from lust. It did not save me either although I was more "pure" during Yeshiva and for about two years afterwards. The reality for many of us is that we were born into non-observant communities and families and just shutting ourselves off from the world is just not reality. If I went back to Yeshiva, it would be absolute torture! Yeshiva and Kollel are not answers to lust.     

You're 100% right that Yeshiva and Kolel are not the answer to lust, and on this forum we answer each person according to their level and situation. We don't discuss whether you should have or not have gone where you did, it is entirely not the issue.

You ask a very good question, and even those of us who are married for many years struggle with this issue. It all boils down to differentiating in our minds (and hearts) between a relationship that is built upon shared goals, the desire to grow together, the desire to make each other whole, build a family, etc... VS. ... Chocolate Pudding.

What? Did I just say "Chocolate Pudding"??

Yes. Because having a crush on a beautiful girl is nothing but lust. An animalistic desire based on nothing but self-gratification. You couldn't care less who she is as a person. She may as well be a juicy piece of stake.

Yes, you will get married and have a lovely wife, and build together a beautiful family based on Torah values. But you will ALWAYS find women that catch your eyes and make you wish you had some of that pudding or steak. It is essential to get this differentiation very clear in our minds.

Ilan, since you are going out now and looking to settle down, it is good that you are open about your questions and addressing these issues now. PLEASE read "Day 16" through "Day 20" of the PDF file from the translations of "The First Day of the Rest of My Life" to get the right perspective.

And may Hashem help you find the right one - as soon as you finish reading it!  ;D

It could be that the word "crush" is in fact the answer to your question. I don't believe that this word exists in chaz"l. So, I would venture that this word is K'pushuto. This means that one's head is really...."crushed". This means that we are NOT using our seichel at all, but using only our eyes, and hearts to do all of the perceiving.

To remove our heads from being in the "crushed" mode, we need to use our seichel, and to move ourselves via our seichel, to a higher gear. R' Nachman z"l teaches that the seichel is a "davar gadol meode".

1) The Baal Shomer Emunim says that when you see a beautiful women, know that her beauty exists ONLY because hashem wishes it to exist. As soon as Hashem changes his wish, this head "crush"ing beauty will cease to exist. (My seichel tells me that the shoresh, the makor of her beauty is.....Hashem!), and NOT this mirage that I am being crushed by.

2)  Her beauty is z'manit (temporary), so that if she would walk staight into a wall head first...she would look completely different in a second.      However, in terms of a relationship built on kedusha, this type of beauty is lasting, and no matter what happens on the oustide, (physically), this type of  beauty, because it is "real" it continues on, and on as it is everlasting.

3) This reminds me of the last picture on this page, (you may not wish to look at it) on GUE site. There are pictures of peoples insides, outsides, etc, (WARNING: this is the last resort page for people who cannot control their lusting). The last pic. is of a pretty young girl, and then the next picture is what is left of her pretty face after it was "crushed" in a traffic accident.

So, using our seichel means that we will NOT need to look at this temporay beauty. Because we know that on the true level, it is not really "real". It belongs to hashem, and as the Baal shomer Emunim said, don't look at her beauty, but rather at it's shoresh....which is the beauty of the creator-the artist who all of the beauty in this world is attributed to.

Sounds like this girl was not even Jewish.  Besides considering the Isur involved, which apparently has not helped you, keep in mind that she has likely had multiple partners, putting her at risk of STDs, cervical cancer, and infertility.  Is this something you would even want to get involved with, even if it were permitted?

I attended a co-ed day school, and I spent four years at an "all-American" college, all with their number of "crushes". I can only tell you that my brain circuits regarding sexuality have been "fried"  forever  :'(   and I am UTTERLY UNABLE to look at a woman without being overwelmed by the most powerful lusts.

I went today to visit somebody in a gigantic nursing home. Those that have been in a nursing home do not need to be reminded that this is perhaps one of the most depressing sites in the planet.  I am sorry for the language, but just think for a minute that many of the women there who are now demented, babling and drooling saliva and wearing diapers that are perhaps filled with urine and other things were once attractive maidens worth of everybody's crushes and lusts. Just think for a moment: Is it for this that we have sold our souls??????????????

This reminds me of the proverbial desert mirages depicted in cartoons, when someone thinks he sees an beautiful oasis with a palm tree, runs to it and jumps in the water only to end with no water and a broken nose.

Chevra

Keep these posts coming, in my fantasy world, the objects of my lust are elavated to "goddesses", these posts are keep bring home the point that all I am lusting after is flesh & blood.  It is mentioned constantly in the news how celebraties constantly undergo painful surgery to try and give the image of being young and attractive, all false and lies.  All these pretty women are human beings just like you and me.  Keep these messages strong, just what I need to here.

Full of gratitude.
London

London,

Please consider modifying your message to spell "goddesses" with a small "g."

Also, try not to think in those terms at all - it sounds too much like Avoda Zara.

Have a wonderful Shabbos.

Kol Tuv.

Kedusha

To an addict's mind, they are godessess. They are his god at that moment. The true G-d seems far away. This is indeed a form of Avodah Zorah, as the Zohar in Parshas Kedoshim writes:

We have learnt that it is forbidden for man to gaze at the beauty of a woman lest evil thoughts be aroused in him and lead him to something worse. When R. Shimon went through the town, followed by the Companions, if he saw a beautiful woman he used to lower his eyes and say to the Companions, Do not turn. Whoever gazes at the beauty of a woman by day will have lustful thoughts at night, and will transgress the precept, "You shall not make to yourselves molten g-ds".

Kedusha wrote on 05 Jun 2009 13:49:


Kedusha

I have modified my post, thanks.  You have hit the nail on the head though, my lusting is exactly an Avodah Zara, when I am in the addict mode I am so religous with my acting out and worship the objects of my lust - this is how insane I am when I act out, that lust becomes a religion with mad rituals, I do not underestimate where my addiction can take me and in recovery know that my acting out besides gilu aroyos is also avodah zoro in every sense of the word.

guardureyes wrote on 05 Jun 2009 14:17:


R. Guard: I'm not here to correct every misspelling in the forum (it would be a full time job  :D), but please change
"G-d" to "god" in your second sentence.  In your 3rd sentence, however, "G-d" is correctly used.

these are moe like g-d lesses than g-desess

they reall are only pixels of ink printed on a papaer

or digital electrons jumping on a screen

that is all after being photoshopped and digitally enhanced

I once visited a boy in memorial hospital (nebach Rachmanah litzlan)

He had been visited moments earlier by one of these g-dlesses .

all he said was how repulsive she was and how obnoxious she was that this heilige bochur (may he rest peacefully in gan eden) didn't recognize her she was downright obnoxious.

If we ever met these people upclose we would probably run away because of their phony haughty selfcentered nature

IT IS ALL DIMYON shlomo hamelech warned us about all of this


humble and happy
a gut Shabbos
bardichev

bs"d

This is a great thread with great thoughts and chizuk!!! Thank you all so much! I often use these techniques when walking down the street. But i also have another way of looking at it: all these girls/women are creations of HaShem. I have absolutely no right to "objectify" them. HaShem creates each one of them with their own history, family, dreams and hopes, and they are not mine to lust after. When i give them back their "humanity", the lust fades immediately...

me wrote on 04 Jun 2009 13:54:
My curiosity just got the best of me and I snuck in for a peek. Guard, you are one sick puppy!

"Woops, a tank rolled over this guys head.".  :o

great post guys!!
a couple thought. if your married remember that before we physically got married Hashem married us on har sinai. teaching us that everything and anything will they and break that eternal union-especially in our generation.
e must realize that the eye will never be happy- there is always a next. i suffer from wishing i got that hotter girl and i can't control it. we are not animals-we have a piece of G-D in each of our hearts. our gps -we can't rise above it all!
"Das is altz hevel havalim -ain oid milvado" "it is all nothingness there is nothing but G-D"

Kedusha wrote on 05 Jun 2009 14:54:


Oh my g-d. Kedusha I think you need to Get out a little! My Goodness! Don't you think you are Getting a little carried away here!

Have a Great day.