BecomeHoly wrote on 05 Mar 2010 00:10:


The poskim (Quoted in Mishne Berura, if I remember correctly) do give a heter for those who can't. The example they give is an obese person.

_{(Personally, I use two pillows and also tuck the corner of my blanket under my face. After all, I gotta fill in the space above my shoulders.)}

Briut wrote on 04 Mar 2010 21:03:


i've been pretty  :-X on this subject, but  as a teenager, its something that i can relate to CA. kol hakavod for having the courage to speak up.

aside from the awkwardness of the situation and the feeling like i've done something wrong, i always try to make up for it during the day, whether or not i have control over it.

but really, thanks for speaking up! 

Shlomo wrote on 05 Mar 2010 01:12:


Shlomo:  Amen to your post! Thanks for speaking up.

Also, Kol haKavod to CA for having the guts to start and stick through this thread! It's a great gift.

Now, if we could just get a couple more folks to step forward and post to say this issue is theirs as well.... The emotional lives we save might be folks just like us but younger and with a better shot at things. You know, folks we can help keep away from the stuff that leads folks to GYE in the first place....

Anybody know where one can locate the Halachos of Keri

trying123 wrote on 05 Mar 2010 16:43:

Yeah, for me too.

Especially regarding the question of whether a current-day wet dream is even a distant relative of the ba'al keri around the time of the mishkan.

I was always under the impression that these were different things, sharing a name only because it's a convenient shorthand.  That doesn't mean that one holds tumah and the other not, it just means that I think there's more to the story than bringing down the rishonim on keri into today's halacha on nocturnal emissions.

Good Shabbos, everyone.

Briut wrote on 05 Mar 2010 18:08:


For lack of sfarim I can't help you right now.... but I think that Briut is reffering to "Tumas Zav"

shemirateinayim wrote on 07 Mar 2010 20:00:


Tumas Zav is not applicable in our days. I am under the immpression that Tumas Keri is one and the same. The tevilah that Ezra HaSofer wanted to instituted for a ba'al Keri before learning Torah is referring to our emissions too.

Chasidic seforim say that even though Ezra's rule was not accepted as law, it is very advisable to do use the Mikva before learning Torah anyhow.

Thanks, guys. I'm hoping to learn more from you, and I hope CA is interested as well (it's your thread, eh?).

But from what I'm seeing so far, the "tumah" that is associated with an involuntary nocturnal emission is ... none at all!!

So the guilt trip that's reasonable to lay onto a teenager learning to be comfortable with his adult body in the light of such an event would be ... none at all??!

Sorry to be beating this dead horse to death, raboisai, but I'd hate to see a teenager taking on a potential lifetime of responsibility and guilt and remorse and whatever... when it's not called for by the Torah.

CA, I'm not saying this is you at all -- you seem to have your head screwed on straight. It's just that the point seems to beg for clarification, in general.

I am stepping into water over my head, as I am NOT familiar enough in these matters to give an informed opinion. Anyone may have access to accurate information is requested to correct my mistakes.

After the above disclaimer, I will venture to suggest that according to my understanding it is necessary to differentiate between a sin and tumah. Just as the act of going to a funeral will render the person tumah, but it is in no way considered a sin to go to a funeral, so too an involuntary emission, as in the cases discussed above, is not a sin at all but will still make the person tumah.

We wash our hands after using the bathroom, ever felt guilty and depressed after relieving yourself? Does the washing of your hands upon waking up in the morning diminish your optimism at the start of a bright new day? They're also part of cleansing ourselves from tumah.




For Tevilas Ezra, we do not need all the rules and regulations of Mikve. A minor chatzitzah is not an obstruction. Rainwater is not absolutely necessary. [If immersing in a swimming pool, it would be preferable if the filter is turned off for the duration of the dip. If it is not possible, try going deeper than the inlet/outlet openings, if they are in the wall of the pool.


When no mikve/pool is available, at least try a method called [i]Tisha Kabin She'uvim[/i], take a shower lasting at least 10 minutes making sure to adhere to the following: 1) You should be standing in some water from beginning to end [in a bathtub shut the drain]. 2) The water should be turned on after you are already in the path of the stream. [The water must come from human power, many authorities say that a human's turning on the faucet is enough. If the water is running first and then you step inside, it may be problematic in this aspect.] The water must continuously be falling on your rosho v'ribo, your head and most of your body. If the flow of water stops or you step out of the flow, even if only for an instant, start your 10 minutes again.

This was told to me a few years ago by a rebbi of mine. I hope I repeated it here without any mistakes or omissions.

Yosef Hatzadik wrote on 07 Mar 2010 23:02:


If I've got you correctly, you seem to be assuming/claiming that an involuntary emission makes a person tumah. I'm wondering where that claim comes from. I hear it a lot, but I just don't see it.  Could someone help me out here?

Again, CA, I'm not jumping on your case about this; you're fine. I'm wondering more generally where the sources for these assumptions comes from.

And PS, Yosef, thanks for the keen distinction between aveirah and tumah. Good point.

I am not taking any of this personally. i am also very curious. i think this is a good topic to cover for us teens and non teens alike on GYE.

Briut wrote on 07 Mar 2010 23:07:


For starters I would look in Parshas Metzorah (Vayikra 15:16) V'ish ki seitzei mimenu shichvas zera v'rochatz bamayim...

Then I would turn to Parshas Ki Seitzei (Devorim 23:11) ki yihye b'cha ish asher lo yihye tahor mikrei loylo... and see Rashi who comments that the posuk is talking about how it generally happens, the halocho would be the same if it happened during the day.


I apologize to everyone if this is not the proper thread to be discussing these points, maybe they ought to be kept in the BAIS MEDRASH section of the forum.

These verses are referring to tumah & tehara for Trumah and karbanos etc. but, as we mentioned, there is an inyan to learn torah with teharah.



REMEMBER though,
Do not abstain from learning Torah for a lengthy period of time due to the lack of access to a mikve, after all our sages taught us that Divrei Torah einom m'kablim tumah, Words of Torah cannot be rendered impure!!!

First I THINK I heard someone mention a swimming pool...
DaLaLaLa summer's  8) coming (or spring  8) or what ever  8).....)

Briut wow you're really out there to protect our little bro's

wish I had a big bro like you.... ;D

Second I never knew that 10 min. under a shower works?
Are you sure?

Also what about the begodim and stuff :-[?

and Shemirateinaim... NO SEFORIM... YOU...?
Where do you get all your Torah form...?
Na, you probably know all those seforim by heart....

Yosef Hatzadik...: I like that 2 dinim thing....
Been a long time since I learned a shtickle Brisker Rov...

Keep the discussion going guys....

See ya...

Peace and Love

I am in a real posting mood...

Bare with me...

Yosef, dearest:

Yes, I think we all understand that tumas keri, zav, zerah, etc all have their sources in the posuk.

My question is, whether the ba'al keri discussed in the chumash is comparable to the person who's had a nocturnal emission in our days. I had always understood that these are NOT the same, and that the loshon was 'borrowed' as a convenient shorthand. Keri is not a wet dream, and the tumah it had associated with it (tumas zav? tumas keri? xxx?) simply doesn't exist in our dor in this way.

Can you help me out here? I ask out of sheer ignorance and intense curiosity (bordering on the 'triggering' here, but I'm gonna stick with this) -- can anyone show us whether tumas keri etc (not m'zl) results from what we'd call a wet dream?

In other words, is there genuine tumah associated with an emission (absent any intent, any bad thoughts during the day, any conscious acts, etc)? And, as a separate point, what's the aveirah?

I'm starting to think that no one is making a compelling connection because there is none. In other words, CA,  you can cross 'tumah' off your list of worries....

trying123 wrote on 08 Mar 2010 01:41:


All my posts over the last 2 months where without any sefarim. Everything I posted was from memory, except for a few rare occasions. (and hebrewbooks.com)

I vaguely remember that R moshe established 9kavim as 6.4 gallons??? but that is definitely off.  I know that the greatest shiur anyone ever gave for 9 kavim is 32 liters.    Ususaly, if a chevra kadisha doesn't utilise a mikva, then they do 9 kavim using 2 or 3 buckets of water. Some use 3 because it's easier to pour over the meis (wimps).

I never realy learnt these halachos much. Although I think there is a siman in the SHulchan Aruch that dicuses what to do on 9 beAv if you have keri.

can anyone simply ask their rav??    or just "go jump in a lake"