OK. No more "religious debate". That's not really what I came here for anyway. I came here because I want to stop staying up all night looking at porn (and thereby ruining the following day),  masturbating until my body begs me to stop, thinking inappropriate things about every beautiful woman I see on the street or elsewhere, losing focus and motivation to do things that are actually important and fun, and I want to be able to sociallize--especially with women--without feeling uncomfortable with myself and without being unable to see the women that I talk to as people and not fleshy pleasure things.

Also, thank you for clarifying the rules.

I'll take on the 90 day challenge when I am ready. Not masturbating intentionally for 90 days is very tall order, especially because I started no later than 5th grade as I recall, although I had no idea what I was actually doing until more like 7th grade.

Early, I know. My guess is that most people discover it closer 7th or 8th grade on average.

I know I can do it, because I am doggedly persistent about things that are important to me. But I just might go crazy in the process. And I don't trust myself to only report every few days or once a week when I get to the higher levels. I need to keep an account of every single day on the forum. I don't care if no one reads it, but I need a way to be held accountable on a daily basis. So I guess I'll be writing a lot...

I'm going to need to install a filter and have someone that I can give the password to before I can start.
I will probably also need a phone number that I can call in case I feel myself about to fall. But what if it's 1 A.M and I'm all by myself? Who will I call? Is it possible to have a list of several phone numbers from different time zones?

Ok, now you are starting to get into the spirit of the GYE community!

Many of us here started at anywhere from 8 years old and up. And many of us were addicted for decades. And yet we are free today. Join an SA group and meet guys there that were far worse off than you, and who are clean for many years.

Especially a guy with your kind of determination, you can beat this! Feel free to post every day on the forum. Many people do that. But the 90-day-chart is updated only once a week meanwhile (we may soon have a system that is automated).

You can send me the password if you want, and I can even make changes when necessary. See this page for more info on how to do this.

And see here for getting a partner...

Dear BruceWayne -
Hi and thanks for your insightful posts and the responses they generated. In the course of your posts and venting you touched on a few things that mean a lot to me. I will try to focus on addressing what seems to be your main issue, and hope to be useful.

But before I go there:

Have you decided if feel you "seriously need help" because of a religious sensibility/preference, or because of a personal, existentialist/survival problem that your lusting behavior poses for you? You have not made that clear yet. The distinction is key, because as long as you know it's all really about morality/religion you can always opt out by playing "the faith card" or deciding you just do not care. Many of us do that for a time. That kind of leeway is not the bedrock of recovery from addiction that AA writes about as it has little if anything to do with the first step, at least as I and my sponsor experienced it.
On the other hand, if you have found a personal need to stop that has nothing whatever to do with "learned morality" or w/anyone else's will, then I'd say I relate to you deeply. I'd also say that the answer I and others have found in recovery might very well work for you, too.
To put it another way: is your problem really that you just can't submit yourself to G-d's or your society's will? If it is, I understand and you seem to have gotten somwhere with the moderator on that (red herring that it may be), and have some decisions to make...OR is the issue that you are aware of your own will, perhaps your will to survive, to live with what you define as "integrity", stay out of jail, to be able to have a healthy marriage, to be a good Jew, whatever, but have become convinced by your frustrating behavior that, as you are now, you are unable to live consistently w/your own bottom-line aspirations? You see, there is no escape from those, no card to play. Now we'd be getting somewhere with recovery based on the 12 steps.
Well, which is it, friend?

Dear Bruce

I want to share my experiance in recovery which it seems we have in common, but I am off to bed now so will post tomorrow, however you asked what should you do if you are tempted at 1am, I live in London, and have many numbers for guys in the states who I can call during the night if I am struggling, I would be happy to give you my number, please contact me via email binyomin25@hotmail.com

I guess it's a bit of both but it's primarily the latter. I don't see how I can live with integrity this way. I don't see how I can be a good husband. I don't even see how marriage would be apporpriate for me the way I am now. If somebody came to me right now and said he had the best girl in the world for me, I would say I'm not interested. I don't care if she went to Bais Yaakov, is drop-dead gorgeous, has an IQ of 150, has a well rounded secular education to compliment her religous training, and is the sweetest, nicest, person ever. It just wouldn't be right for me and it wouldn't be fair to the girl. I see myself at the brink of losing control over myself. I see myself at the brink of failing my classes (or at least doing subpar for my standards, which is pretty much straight A's).

The real epiphany came a couple of weeks ago when I clicked on a link in a forum that did not have a description attached, and it turned out to be an extremely disturbing pornographic video that would probably be illegal in most places. I watched all 10 minutes of it because I was too shocked to do anything. Shocked at the content and shocked at myself for sitting there letting it run, shocked that I had sunk that far. I don't think I'll ever forget that video. I didn't derive a single bit of pleasure from it either. Thankfully, it has since been removed from that site (yes, I checked), which is NOT a pornographic site. It's a site where people can upload whatever they want, so of course there's plenty of porn there but that isn't the purpose of the site. So that's when I knew I had a major problem. And I didn't want to fall even farther and get to the point where I would watch more videos like it and actually enjoy them. I didn't want to go from there to even worse things. I saw myself potentially transforming into a monster--a rapist, child molester, murderer, porn actor, porn producer, adulterer or "adulteree", general criminal, WHATEVER--all because all of the porn that I have seen over the years, some of it very messed up stuff, had completely warped my mind and desenstitized me to every kind of emotion there is, especially mercy and compassion. Combine that with an intense personality, a natural propensity to anger easily, pent up anger and frustration at the world, and a naturally mischievous mind and you've got a recipe for disaster. For the record, I've spent years working on managing my anger. I never blow up at people. I never curse at people and I've never hurt anyone. But there are so many times I would love to. I just let it sink somewhere inside and then channel it later towards something productive. Actually if you were to meet me, I'd come across as a very mellow and easy-going guy. But that took years to develop. I used to channel my anger towards competitive sports but I don't have that anymore. It's a problem.

Anyway, that's why I'm here. Because I don't want to turn into a monster. I know somebody who has a criminal record and many years ago (like at least 10) I found a large stash of pornography that belonged to him. He's married, too. The only reason we ever crossed paths in the first place is because we are related. Needless to say I don't have anything to do with him and I'm ashamed and embarassed to be related to a lowlife like him who doesn't even want to stop his ways. But to me there is at least a subconscious assocition in my mind between crime/general immorality and porn. I don't know if such an associtation is real, but that's how I see it.

I just don't want to turn into a depraved, under achieving, lowlife.  

dearest sweetest new guy bruce

You can and you will be helped.Listen to everything Dov writes he is calm intelligent experienced and a voice of reason.
my experience is alot different than his so is my healing different.
If you need a good "virtual" pat on the back let me know.Post away I read almost everything this site beside that it helped me turn my life around .It replaced all other internet activity.

Wishing you much Hatzlacha be cool take it one day at a time.We need you to join our ranks to beat y"H forever.

humble & happy
bardichev

Hatzlacha to you, Bruce.  You can really succeed!  Please keep us posted with your progress, one day at a time.

BruceWayne wrote on 31 May 2009 22:57:


Dear Bruce

What you posted regarding your relative who you call a "lowlife" really touched a cord in me.  There is a Gemoroh I am sure the Talmedai Chachomim will quote the source, which states that if someone notices a fault in his friend he has this flaw within him too.  The reason it touched a cord in me is because you currently see yourself as a lowlife too, and that's why you write about your relative.  In trust your relative is very sick and you should pray for him, perhaps you can let him know about this website.  Bruce, you are very sick with an illness called addiction, the medication is contained in the GYE Handbooks work the tools till you find what keeps you stopped.  You are not a "lowlife" you are sick trying to get "well", you are not a "bad" person trying to do "good". 

You write that you see yourself on the brink of failing classes this is classic unmanageability that is the first step of recovery, accpeting that you are powerless over the addiction and that your life has become unmanageable as a result.  I too struggled with my religion vs my addiction, but came to realise this is just another tool of my addict side to keep me in the sickness.  We read in the SA meetings at the begining that "the sexaholic has taken himself out of the whole context of what is right or wrong".  I was told to leave the debating society, I am too sick, for me porn, masturbating are lethal for me I need to STOP & stay STOPPED, recovery for me is the most important part of my life without exception.  Without recovery my life is as you describe a depraved existance trying to gratify a never ending craving monster that has no boundries no respect for anyone or anything.

Bruce, from your posts it seems that you are still young, you have a really holy and special soul that is crying out for help,  read the posts and see how many of us waited until we were married many years with children and only then got into recovery.  You have an oppotunity that I would die for to have this awarness at such a young age I admire you and hope and pray that you will take action to stop this deadly cycle of addiction. 

Keep coming back
London

Hey new guy!
I was going to weigh in on the philosophy debate, but then decided against it. Let me just offer a little personal encouragement. From what I have seen and experienced myself, anyone can do this if they are really determined to do WHATEVER IT TAKES. I've been clean almost 28 weeks, and I started at age 12 and became addicted very quickly due to my strenuous home environment. If I can do it, I'm sure you can too. I can see the determination in your posts, and if you turn that determination into action you will succeed. And one last thing: Just for the record, I read every new post on this forum, as do many other members (and the great Guard of course).

Dear BW -
Yeah to London, one of the most frequent causes of failure at actually getting better is forgetting. It would be quite natural for me to consider myself fixed up as soon as I turn my back on the first temptation! "It's been three days - I feel better!! I am better!" You'd think that after a year of not screwing up all of us would just figure we are OK. In fact, the overwhelming majority of people I have met in recovery rooms over the years use a revolving door approach for a while, then finally disappear. Strangely, the "last gasp" is often when they start giving advice to others in meetings instead of sharing, I guess because they are now better. They also use "you" - the straw man - a lot when sharing, rather than frankly opening up about themselves directly. Fortunately, some do not. They retain faith - and it really is exactly faith - that they are not OK yet. This means I still cannot expect to act in the same ways I did before and expect to remain sane/healthy; cannot use lusting behaviors and remain in control of them (or myself); can't lie my head off and stay sane in every (or any)other respect, etc.
You do not appear to be of the revolver ilk. In order to actually keep getting better, I need to stay an addict in recovery. I try to say:"when I lose my temper/lie/act out, I do xyz." I can't talk like I am all better, lest I actually believe it. It sometimes makes others think I am still doing that stuff, still just as sick. Too bad. The gemora puts it most beautifully: Better I should appear a fool in the eyes of my fellow man for a short time (like a lifetime, for example) than be a fool in the eyes of the Almighty forever. Hatzlacha and stay in touch.

President Lincoln (I think) once said that is better to be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt. Kind of similar idea, I guess, kind of like those revolving door people you talked about where it's apparent from the way they talk that they have fooled themselves into thinking they are better. Silence is a good thing for a person. Don't chazal say that?

London-- I am 22 and still single, so I guess you're right that it's good for me to be tackling this now, but I still wish I had actually realized that it was a problem much earlier than this and that I had taken care of it years ago. Maybe I wouldn't be so crazy if that were case, and maybe things would be normal enough for me to not be single at this point....
It's just so frustrating to see all my friends my age in relationships and getting married, without all the problems that I have. Their lives are so much more normal in so many ways and they have the tools to create successful relationships. I never had an example to follow. It's like their minds are so much clearer and their hearts and souls are so much more at ease. They are at ease and comfortable with themselves, which allows them to share their lives with others. But me--I'm confused, frustrated, I'm uncomfortable with who and what I am (if I can even define that) and I downright can't trust people. I just can't. It's frustrating that I want to be like they are but I can't even if I wanted to. Never. I just don't have the tools for it.

If you start on this road now you will not even believe what you will achieve in even one (1!) year. As I was told (and found to be true): "If I told you now, where you will be in a year, working this program seriously, you would simply not believe me."
PS. Between friends, it gets a little easier to just give up on regrets and go for it when I realize there is really no other way out, no? And my worst choice of all is: keep doing whatever got me here .

Dear Bruce

You are now at a junction in your life, and have 2 paths infront of you, you can either carry on the acting out path with devastating consequences or you can start on the recovery path.  If you choose the reocvery path (which I hope you will) this is what the founders of AA write in the promises of those who get recovery:

"If we are painstaking about this phase of our development, we will be amazed before we are half way through.

We are going to know a new freedom and a new happiness.

We will not regret the past nor wish to shut the door on it.

We will comprehend the word serenity and we will know peace.

No matter how far down the scale we have gone, we will see how our experience can benefit others.

That feeling of uselessness and self-pity will disappear.

We will lose interest in selfish things and gain interest in our fellows.

Self-seeking will slip away.

Our whole attitude and outlook upon life will change.

Fear of people and of economic insecurity will leave us.

We will intuitively know how to handle situations which used to baffle us.

We will suddenly realize that God is doing for us what we could not do for ourselves.

Are these extravagant promises? We think not. They are being fulfilled among us - sometimes quickly, sometimes slowly.  They will always materialize if we work for them.

Alcoholics Anonymous p83-84"

I can tell you from my own recovery which I am not half way through that my life today bears no resemblence to when I was in the heat of active addiction.  It is very easy for us to look around at our peers and feel self pity about our lot - I used to do this regularly but it got me no where, Hashem has a plan for me I do not know what it is but it included my addiction and recovery.  The same applies to you, you are young you have your entire life ahead of you stop looking around at you friends who knows whats going on behind closed doors, one of the tools I have learned in recovery is gratitude, I have a daily gratitude list which I give over to a friend in recovery, without knowing you and from reading your posts I can think of many things that you should be grateful for.  My only hope is that you will take the tools of recovery as suggested in the GYE Handbook and work through them throughly and honestly till you find what works for you to get recovery and those promises mentioned above will materialise in your life before you know it, I have seem the transformation in my life and in the lives of countless other people in reocvery who are prepared to do what it takes to get well.

Keep coming back.
London

Dearest Dov and London, I can't express enough how fortunate we are to have your wisdom - and experience - on our forum!

OK, London.

Just for kicks I'll call you out on it: What can you see in my posts that I should be grateful for? I'm curious to know if you can get any of them right or if you can show me something I never thought of.