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A platform of recovery for Jews who find themselves struggling with addictions to pornography, masturbation or other sexual problems. Post anonymously about your struggles without fear of anyone finding out who you are. Ask questions, post answers and be inspired! Get tips and guidance from the experts who moderate this forum, as well as from fellow strugglers.
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TOPIC: bothered 1601 Views

bothered 24 May 2009 15:41 #5231

  • nate62
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After reading the article on jpost about guardureyes I was very bothered by on of the comments, is it true? Could someone please dissprove it for me, please!!!

quote " 

8. Cart before the horse?
It appears to me that the root of the problem is the basic attitude towards women. If women exist (in a man's mind) only for sex and breeding and not as actual human beings, then everything from pornography to prostitution to spousal and child abuse will follow. Get over the idea that women are meat that has to be kept covered and out of sight so men won't be tempted, and this might change. Is the problem the sight or sound of a woman, or what is in a man's heart? "
Last Edit: by Khaz.

Re: bothered 24 May 2009 16:38 #5232

  • bardichev
Dear Net

Please Try to let me explain something from two different angles.I want  to preface my words with apologeis if I am considered a HEDYOT KOFETZ BIROSH.

The Y'H we deal with are not new they are only different and more savvy and so very much more in your face.Having said that we must understand since begining of time we as a people STRUGGLED to maintain a lifestyle of kedusha while we are trying to build our lives families businesses etc.

In the course of time the world became very LIBERATED and the time honored morals between men and women were eroded for better or worse( I am no here to give a lecture on sociatal ills I am trying to make a historical point).

Fast forward to the present in year 2009 in order to be a Frum jew you need 2 things
A. Kedusha one must live a holy life, our religion requires it.
B. One must earn Parnassah (always did) in aworld that has different morals then ours.

My point is it is hard enough to maintain a holy life(PROOF this forum) We need not start the social argument if this is all caused by the way the Torah requires us to interact with women.
As A final point the Torah IS DARCHEI NOAM the way of sweetness .No matter how different it may seem from the sociatal norms sic. We don't need to engage in debate over this topic.

I have some other thoughts regarding this topic .It is only my personal perspective if you agree or disagree please let me know.

humble & happy
Last Edit: by syataDshmaya.

Re: bothered 24 May 2009 17:46 #5235

  • the.guard
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Dear Net,

What this writer wrote  in the "talkbacks" of the Jpost article is completely against the religious perspective. But even if you put religion aside, what they write could maybe be true for some people, but definitely not for us. We addicts have already messed up our minds and we can no longer view the slightest stimulation without it triggering the addiction. Please read this FAQ page. I think it might shed some light on what I'm saying.

This comment in the "talkback" is a typical scoffing of non-religious people who want to make light of the restrictions that Chazal put in place for our benefit. Chazal understood the nature of these addictions and how dangerous and powerful these desires are.

Net, you are a smart boy, but it could be that sometimes you let "questions" and "cheshbonos" and "bilbulim" nag at you too much. We have to realize that the Yetzer Hara is ruling over our minds and doesn't let us think straight. Let's let go of cheshbonos a little, and follow what we know is right in our hearts...
Webmaster of - Maintaining Moral Purity in Today's World. We’re here on a quest ; it’s really all a test. Just do your best and G-d will do the rest.
Last Edit: by shteigen.

Re: bothered 26 May 2009 12:05 #5302

  • chl

I would like to ask the question the other way round:

1) Where can you find magazines in the open depicting women as meat: on the subway newspaper stand in New York City or in Meah Shearim?

2) What will excite a man more: a woman with a tichl down to her nose, or someone who walks around in the street as if she forgot to put on her dress?

3) Which society is dehumanizing women more: a consumer-oriented, hollywood/top-model-influenced society, or a society who struggles to live a spiritual way of life?

4) Concerning covering ourselves: when does one generally feel the need to cover and protect something: when it is precious, or when it's of little value?

5) Concerning meat: when one goes to the butcher: is the meat covered or uncovered?


I talk a lot to "secular" Jews, as well as to non-Jewish people. They mean well. They want to protect and promote the status of women, and that is what truly religious Jews want too. Here are some of the things i tell them:

Did you know that one of the main sources for everyday life of 17th/18th century life in Europe is the memoir of Glickel von Hameln, a Jewish woman. Now how many women at that time were able to read and write?

Women are praised in our seforim not just for their sense of modesty, but for their learning, their intelligence. For prophecy and leadership! Which other culture produced that throughout history, not just in the last 100 years?!

Which other culture protects women's rights as Judaism does?

This includes sexuality:

a) Mitzvas Onah (not just breeding, and not just for a man's lust). Also: A man can't just jump on his wife, but has to draw her close, speak to her in a loving way etc.

b) during relations a woman has to be mazria first ideally. [GUE - if this is a trigger please remove it. I am new here so i don't know what i can write])

c) a man is forbidden to rape c'v or otherwise force or demand sex. (compare to some societies where rapists are legally protected and the victim is at fault!)

All the above is just from a legal/halachic perspective. From a more poetic/romantic point of view:

a) Knesses Israel is feminine and we get married on Shavuos.

b) Shir HaShirim.

c) the beautiful letter of the Ramban about sexuality, beautiful passages in the Zohar haKadosh (all of Kabbalah speaks in terms of the relationship between male and female).

So on the one side people like the JP poster want to promote and protect women,and we have proof from our history that Judaism does just that.

Then sometimes they will argue: but i like the way men look at me, i have the right to dress sexy etc...
I tell them, ok, but following your logic, you can't have it both ways: on the side you want the right for pornography, sexual "freedom" when you feel like it, on the other side you want to prevent it.

Judaism on the other side does has both: protection/honor of women and a beautiful and exciting sexual life inside marriage.

From all of this we see: it is the secular society who is not able to maintain the balance.

I have yet to meet someone who is able to contradict the above points.

But: no society is perfect, including Judaism: there is abuse, c'v. there is anger towards women. there are tremendous mistakes in chinuch in general, and concerning sexuality in particular. there is a forum like this one. We can't fool ourselves about that either... but we have ideals, and we have tools to work towards these ideals b'h.

May HaShem guide us on the right path, especially now, zman matan torasenu.

Last Edit: 26 May 2009 12:08 by MichiganerRebbe.

Re: bothered 26 May 2009 13:09 #5305

  • the.guard
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CHL, you are a BOMB!!
Webmaster of - Maintaining Moral Purity in Today's World. We’re here on a quest ; it’s really all a test. Just do your best and G-d will do the rest.
Last Edit: by Dovid W..

Re: bothered 26 May 2009 14:03 #5309

  • ano nymous
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Chl that was a wonderful post with so many great insights. Thanks!!!
Last Edit: by aron.

Re: bothered 26 May 2009 20:26 #5328

  • the.guard
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Chl, I sent out your post as today's Chizuk e-mail in the "Shmiras Ainayim" list. (I don't know if you get it or not). If not, send me an e-mail and I'll forward it to you.

Somebody wrote back "wow! this is powerful stuff!!"

Thanks for the great insights!
Webmaster of - Maintaining Moral Purity in Today's World. We’re here on a quest ; it’s really all a test. Just do your best and G-d will do the rest.
Last Edit: by yungerman83.

Re: bothered 27 May 2009 10:42 #5367

  • chl

Dear GUE,

thank you for your kind words.

After all the inspiration i received here, i am thankful to HaShem that these words were an inspiration to some of you. We should be blessed to continue to inspire each other!

BTW i davened today for all of us by Shimon HaTzaddik zsuchso yagen aleynu.

I only signed up for the chizuk emails today. So i will email you.

Thanks for everything!

Last Edit: by hashemshimatefilati.

Re: bothered 04 Jun 2009 10:50 #5705

  • battleworn
I would like to echo the words of R' Guard and Ano about chl's post. I also want to add some explanation with a moshol.

If you were blindfolded and someone you trust told you that right in front of you there's a mound of pure gold, chances are that you would believe him. If you then took off the blindfold and saw a pile of ashes, then you would no longer believe him. But what you don't know is, that really he was telling you the truth. Only the gold is covered with a thin layer of ash. As long as your eyes were covered you knew the truth, it was when you opened them that you got confused.


We know in our minds that every person is a very very chashuv. A person is actually nothing less than a personal "shliach" of Hashem. We absolutely can't fathom the greatness of each and every person. But if we open our eyes and see a peice of meat or a sex symbol etc. then our eyes will fool us unless we have gotten to the madreiga of Dovid Hamelech -"Libi cholol bikirbi"

Those who try to deny this are denying the basic nature of man and they're wholey unequiped for dealing with taivoh. There's no way you can even attempt to control lust if you don't even know that it exists.

Last Edit: 04 Jun 2009 10:51 by PowerofNow.
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