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What prohibition are involved?
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TOPIC: What prohibition are involved? 3188 Views

What prohibition are involved? 17 May 2009 14:03 #4991

  • chasid
What Torah commandments are involved in gazing at photos of undressed unmarried gentile women?
Last Edit: by Emuna.

Re: What prohibition are involved? 17 May 2009 14:14 #4992

  • the.guard
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Dear Chasid - welcome to our community!

A non-religious man once told the Brisker Rav that he doesn't believe in G-d because he has many questions. The Brisker Rav told him, "you don't have questions, you have answers". So my friend, if this question you ask is really an "answer" to why you aren't working on yourself, then I don't know if I can help you. However, I believe that the fact you are asking us this question is because you genuinely want to stop these behaviors. You just feel you need to understand more how dangerous and sinful it is, so that you can convince the Yetzer Hara to leave you alone.

There's no question that any Posek you will ask will tell you that it is prohibited. I would like you to realize that your question is really the "addiction" speaking, and that this is one of the tricks of the addiction. Rabbi Twerski, founder of an Alcoholic Rehabilitation Center, compared such claims to me once on the phone, to an addict who says "I was just trying beer, I wasn't drinking whiskey"...

As far as the prohibitions are concerned, anyone who is frum and has learned any Torah, should be aware of the severity of these sins. The Torah says "Thou shall not go astray after your hearts and after your eyes which lead you astray,". This applies to any image that arouses one's sexual inclination, and erotic images of any type are definitely forbidden. The Rabbis state that anyone who purposefully arouses his sexual organ is to be banished (Niddah 13A). The Gemara there even goes as far to say "Better one's stomach should burst than he should touch the area of his bris (and possibly bring himself to an erection)". And another Gemara says "better to walk behind a lion than to walk behind a woman". And another Gemara: "whoever brings himself to an erection is destroying the world". This is not Mussar or Chassidus, this is regular Gemara. Chaza"l were fire about this! The Medrash says that anyone who is not careful with gazing at women will come to sin with them in the end.

Viewing porn is also included in the prohibition of "Lo Sikrevu Legalos Erva, Ani Hashem Elokeichem" - "Do not come close to revealing nakedness, for I am Hashem your G-d". There is no other Mitzva in the Torah where such terminology is used. Even with idol worship, the Torah doesn't say not to come close! Only with sexual matters, the Torah exhorts us to stay far away from it.  It is also interesting to note that the Torah uses the words "do not come close to reveal nakedness" and not "to sexual relations". This implies that "revealing nakedness" (i.e. even looking) is, on some level, as if one had already done the act.

This little test can be your meter - if an image triggers a sexual twitch, a stronger heartbeat, sweaty palms, or even a silent, "Wow!" then you are polluting your soul, damaging your "Da'at," the ability to know G-d, and cutting yourself off from the Divine Presence, the Shechinah. The eyes are the windows to the soul and they are the vessels to receive the light of the Shechina. One who has damaged these vessels will not be able to bask in the glory of the Shechinah in this world, nor in the next.

So with all these sources, how can a frum person even ask such a question? The answer to this is also in the Torah. "Ki Hashochad Ya'aver ainai Chachamim... etc..." .. "For bribes make wise men blind, and twist the words of Tzadikim". The Yetzer Hara, who offers us bribes of false and fleeting pleasures, blinds us to the obvious truths and makes us think we have real "questions". But he is just disguising them as questions. Don't be fooled, and realize that these are not questions but really his "answers"! (R' Elchanan Wasserman used this very Pasuk in an essay he wrote, to explain how the multitudes of non-Jewish wise men and scientists from around the world, fail to see the obvious and glaring hand of Hashem in all of creation).

Besides all this, viewing porn turns all women into objects of lust. This is the very opposite of what relations in a Jewish marriage are meant to be. The "lust" aspect of sexual desire was created by G-d to cause a man to seek out a woman and take her for himself. Once a couple is married, the "lust" aspect of sex should be relegated to the side and should no longer be a dominant aspect of the relationship between the two. They have dedicated themselves to each other, and when they are together, they should be cultivating an emotional bond through the sharing and sensuality of intercourse. Sex is a "sacred moment" of closeness between the two of them. This is also perhaps why Chaza"l prohibited having relations by day. Firstly, because one may see something about his wife's body that may turn him off, and on the other side of the coin, by seeing his wife's body he is fueling his lust instead of focusing on the true sacredness of the moment.

A man who insists to make "lust" the most dominant aspect of his relations, is losing out on the true connection and closeness that martial relations should cultivate, and ultimately his marriage is likely to fall apart. As his wife has children and her body changes, and/or as she gets older, he will loose interest in her and he will never be able to lead a normal marriage life. A relationship built on "lust" quickly fades away. Also, by fueling the lust through his relations and not focusing on building the emotional bond with his wife, he will continue to be pulled after the other women he sees on the street, and will transgress all the time the Issur D'eoraysah of "Lo Sachmod". Lust is truly a poison, and the nature of lust is that "the more you feed it, the more you need it". One can never get enough of lust. In the end, either we win it over or it wins us over.

Just one last thought. Even with a strong resolve, one should never trust themselves in these areas and should get a strong Internet filter for their computer to help them through moments of weakness. And never stop davening to Hashem to save you and your offspring from what is perhaps this generation's biggest test!

Please download these handbooks that will change your life!

Right click on the links below and select "Save Link/Target As" to download the handbooks to your computer.

1) The GuardYourEyes Handbook
This Handbook details 18 suggested tools and techniques, in progressive order, beginning with the most basic and fundamental approaches to dealing with this addiction, and continuing down through increasingly earnest and powerful methods. For the first time, we can gauge our level of addiction and find the appropriate tools for our particular situation. And no matter what level our addiction may have advanced to, we will be able to find the right tools to break free in this handbook!

2) The GuardYourEyes Attitude
The Attitude Handbook details 30 basic principles to help us maintain the proper attitude and perspective on this struggle. Here are some examples: Understanding what we are up against, what it is that Hashem wants from us, how we can use this struggle for tremendous growth, how we can deal with bad thoughts, discovering how to redirect the power of our souls, understanding that every little bit counts, learning how to bounce back up after a fall, and so on and so forth...

May Hashem be with you.
Webmaster of www.guardyoureyes.org - Maintaining Moral Purity in Today's World. We’re here on a quest ; it’s really all a test. Just do your best and G-d will do the rest.
Last Edit: by 18.

Re: What prohibition are involved? 17 May 2009 15:16 #4996

  • chasid
I have plenty of reason of why not to do such a deed. Reason much greater than the reason you have mentioned. I do not not know why you haven't mentioned these reasons because they are clearly mentioned by the Rambam in his Pirush on Sanhedrin 7:4 and in Hilchot Teshuva.

My knowledge is limited and that is why I am asking. I want to know what Torah prohibition are involved in the case of gentile undressed women. The only on that I can think of is "you shall be holy." Which is a general prohibition. The prohibition of not straying after your eyes would apply to relatives, a niddah, a married woman. For this reason I asked about a unmarried gentile woman.
Last Edit: by nachy.

Re: What prohibition are involved? 17 May 2009 15:57 #5000

  • bardichev
wowee we have a lamdan on board

the ramban tells us the basics of yiddishkite  is  NOT to be a NAVAL BERESHUS HATORA.
I am also a chasid and I learned some torah too but I don’t have the correct TEITSH of the word NAVAL I think it can be loosely translated as a PIG in the permission of the Torah.

You can go down this road and get all cute with your diorayssos and dirabanans ultimately you will be a NAVAL.It may work in lomdus bet your heart and mind will be GOYISH

Dear yid
You can choose any path you want in life it is yours to make or break .In the end you have one court to answer to. That is you being honest with yourself.
When you are listening to tekias shofar wrapped in your tallis holding your leather bound machzor swaying back and forth and the image of the gentile unmarried n****d women pops into your mind will you be so brazen and say oh cute no di'oraysa there.or when the whole shul is dancing with fervor in simchas tiorah and you cant keep your eyes off the ezras noshim imagining who knows what. what will you tell YOURSELF then???

CHERPAS NAVAL AL TISIMEINI!!!

there is a long Rambam regarding this so is there a rabbeinu yonah I don’t have either in front of me know so I cant quote them.

See the or hachayim in the parshas arayis in achrei mos

Listen up end of the day you will have to look yourself in the mirror and honestly tell yourself I'm good I was only oiver drabbananan.

Besides there is a gemara in avodah zra 27 poretz geder yishchenu nachash

usually humble and usually happy
bardichev
Last Edit: by TchuvaAdMotai.

Re: What prohibition are involved? 17 May 2009 16:04 #5001

  • chasid
Bardichev: Please do not reply to any of my posts till you learn how to read.
Last Edit: by linijoe@gmail.com.

Re: What prohibition are involved? 17 May 2009 16:09 #5002

  • bardichev
boy can I read...

I won't  respond to your post and I hope no one reads them .This a freindly place with people who want to be helped can be helped .

humbled
b
Last Edit: by balaveirah.

Re: What prohibition are involved? 17 May 2009 16:16 #5004

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Barditchev Tzadik, I know you mean Leshaim Shamayim, but I think you misread Chasid. He also means Lishaim Shamayim. He is only trying to help us mention the most important reasons why we should encourage people to stop these behaviors.

Let's make all the effort we can on these forums to only be mekarev with Ahavah every Jew and be dan likaf zechus unless we are 100% sure that someone's intentions are not proper. And even if so, preferably contact me about it and I'll try to deal with it.

Chasid, please forgive us. We know you mean good.

I love all Yidden!!
Webmaster of www.guardyoureyes.org - Maintaining Moral Purity in Today's World. We’re here on a quest ; it’s really all a test. Just do your best and G-d will do the rest.
Last Edit: by .

Re: What prohibition are involved? 17 May 2009 16:22 #5005

  • bardichev
I apologize
sorry
I love all yidden too
Last Edit: by .

Re: What prohibition are involved? 17 May 2009 17:09 #5007

  • London
My Dear  Chasid

I am not sure of your intentions in posing the question, but just want to say some of my experiance in Porn v Torah.  I am not a talmid chochom of any sort and cannot quote any Gemoros & Rishomnim etc.

Let's assume hypothetically speaking that viewing nude unmarried non jewish women was muter min HaTorah, I would still not do it.  The early people of AA realised that they were allergic to alcohol and as soon as they had even the smallest amounts of alcohol in their system all hell would break loose, and try as they might they could not drink like a gentleman, even though most of mankind could.  The same for me applies with my lust triggers (which include nude unmarried non jewish women), even if most men can handle the smallest amount of lust in and lust like a gentleman, I cannot as I am allergic to lust.  Therefore even if the Torah permitted certain types of porn I could not view it as the consequences within me are devastating.  Because I am an addict if I take the first drink and look at unmarried non-jewish women, they then become objects of my lust, and this will then lead me to objectify jewish women, whcih is ossur.  Further when I take the first drink there is no telling where I will end up, masturbation is certain.  So as I stated I am not well versed in the Seforim but I know for me looking at any type of trigger for me is distructive.

Perhaps looking at non jewish unmarried women can come under the Possuk of Venishmartem Meod Lenafshosachem - You shall guard your health, both spritual and physical,  when act out the feelings of shame guilt, self loathing depression always occur - Just a thought.

London
Last Edit: by pgreen6840.

Re: What prohibition are involved? 17 May 2009 17:52 #5012

  • Ezra512
B"H

Maybe I missed it since I only skimmed through the comments, but to my understanding the issur of V'lo Sasuru should apply to anything causing arousal, as explained by GUE.

Last Edit: by marinamarina.

Re: What prohibition are involved? 17 May 2009 19:04 #5018

  • Ezra512
B"H

also cf. the first beur halachah in shulchan oruch concerning the 6 mitzvos that are always incumbent upon a Jew. the last V'lo Tasuro.. acharei einaychem which Chazal says refers to znus which is quote "Mi SheHu Rodef achar taavas haOlam M'Bli SheYeChaven BaHem Klal LKavana Tovah."

Ezra
Last Edit: by pesachgehinom.

Re: What prohibition are involved? 17 May 2009 19:43 #5021

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When Rav Shimon Bar Yochai went through the town, followed by the Companions, if he saw a beautiful woman he used to lower his eyes and say to the Companions, Do not turn. "You shall not make to yourselves molten g-ds". R. Abba said: 'It is forbidden to a man to fix his gaze upon heathen idols and upon gentile women, or to receive healing from them.' (The Holy Zohar, Kedoshim)

See also this page for many more Sources from the Torah and from Chazal...
Webmaster of www.guardyoureyes.org - Maintaining Moral Purity in Today's World. We’re here on a quest ; it’s really all a test. Just do your best and G-d will do the rest.
Last Edit: by koalon.

Re: What prohibition are involved? 18 May 2009 22:11 #5060

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Dear Chosid,

You asked a good question, thank-you. This is something I thought about a lot during the years I acted out and used such things. The truth is, I could not stop doing it. I simply could not live without it. The reason I stopped had nothing to do with whether the Ribono Shel olam din't want me to look, or not. Because: I couldn't stop, even if the possuk said exactly what you are asking, word for word: "Thou shalt not look at p*** images of any kind, even in 'Sears' catalogues" for example. As far as I know, there is no evidence that I could have stopped if I heard even Hashem Himself tell me not to do it. This is not a critcism of me, nor of Hashem! I simply could not stop. The proof I have, is that everything I did with all my koach to stop, failed, for years and even at the cost of great loss. This included medication, three shrinks, five or more rebbi's, a severe auto accident, and daily shame, regret, and fear. It simply never occurred to me - during almost 15 years of getting worse - that I need to do whatever it takes to stop or I will die. When it finally did, I got the help I needed and stopped. I still need to do things to stay stopped, and my life is wonderful now, I am with the Ribono Shel olam even more than I though possible,  my marriage is transformed and wonderful, all beyond anything I ever thought I would be zoiche to before.
Your question, innocent as it is, reminds me of what they say in the mane of tzaddikim: A person can learn and daven many hours of the day, be honest kehalochah in business, make brochos w/two coverings on his head for food and nizhar in shabbos, etc. Then we ask him when he spends time thinking about the Ribono Shel olam and he says: Who has time for that? I am too busy being a yid! Tell me, besides our guilty, shameful moments, when do we feel completely alone, in secret with Hashem yisborach? In a place nobody else knows? Not just thinking about Him like a math problem of getting change at the store or because we happen to be in krias Shma and saying the words "Havayah echod" - I mean thinking in a relationship - just like you think about your wife, or someone you are speaking with? Simple, plain emunah chushis: "We are together, Hashem and me, and of course that is just great! The Master and boirei is with me right now." When do we think this? When does anybody? The question you ask is the same as asking: what is wrong with a yid who keeps kol ahtorah kulah but has no individual relationship whatsoever with his Tatteh en himmel? The Chovos Halevovos makes it clear that the goal of the world, the Torah and Mitzvos, is to create a individual, beautiful, personal relationship with the Borei Olam inside the living heart of each and every yid. When I was doing the sick stuff, I had only a guilt-yearning type of relationship with my Tatteh, very confused and very useless to all around me and perhaps to myself as well. That is the "possuk" that says it is "ossur" to look at what you ask.

Who cares if it is an issur deoraisa, derabbonon, or none at all? I challenge you to try to stop. If you can't, then it is ruling over you and you are serving it, not the Ribono Shel olam, sorry. We are not chesboning about an aveira issue here, at all. (Actually, as a chosid you should understand because the chidush of chasidus is about the unwritten part, the motivation to keep the halocha and the relationship with Hashem, not halocha itself. Every litvishe kept and keeps halocha. No?)

Nothing I have written is personal, or critical in any way, just an observation - this is how it is with me, should I decide to let go of my recovery program and forsake myself. May Hashem help us all do the best we can with His help. I was not able to get His help until I worked the 12 steps because my life depended on it. Period. No halocha issue here, just plain 100% pikuach nefesh. I love you and hope you understand what I am writing, heilige yid.
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Last Edit: 20 Jul 2009 21:27 by mauricer.

Re: What prohibition are involved? 24 May 2009 04:42 #5216

  • Elya K
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You should not go after your eyes and after your heart.
Be holy
Ervas ____ & ervas ____. Kal V'Chomer a goya. 

What difference does it make?  it's all the
same body.  The point is, how does one FEEL after he has looked at this stuff?  Do you feel
good after spoiling your clothing? Or the electric feeling of being drugged by the images?
If you can honestly say you feel good afterwards, then keep doing it.  But I will guarantee you,
eventually this will not be enough.  After all, after a while they all look the same.

But the lust continues and soon we look for more exciting and dangerous situations to explore
and get our "highs" and some of us end up either in jail, dead, divorced or broke.  it's your choice.
Former moderator of the Jewish Healing Group phone conference and presently one of the GYE hotline moderators.
Last Edit: by yisrael.

Re: What prohibition are involved? 24 May 2009 06:45 #5219

  • chl
Besides all this, viewing porn turns all women into objects of lust. This is the very opposite of what relations in a Jewish marriage are meant to be. The "lust" aspect of sexual desire was created by G-d to cause a man to seek out a woman and take her for himself. Once a couple is married, the "lust" aspect of sex should be relegated to the side and should no longer be a dominant aspect of the relationship between the two. They have dedicated themselves to each other, and when they are together, they should be cultivating an emotional bond through the sharing and sensuality of intercourse. Sex is a "sacred moment" of closeness between the two of them. This is also perhaps why Chaza"l prohibited having relations by day. Firstly, because one may see something about his wife's body that may turn him off, and on the other side of the coin, by seeing his wife's body he is fueling his lust instead of focusing on the true sacredness of the moment.

A man who insists to make "lust" the most dominant aspect of his relations, is losing out on the true connection and closeness that martial relations should cultivate, and ultimately his marriage is likely to fall apart. As his wife has children and her body changes, and/or as she gets older, he will loose interest in her and he will never be able to lead a normal marriage life. A relationship built on "lust" quickly fades away. Also, by fueling the lust through his relations and not focusing on building the emotional bond with his wife, he will continue to be pulled after the other women he sees on the street, and will transgress all the time the Issur D'eoraysah of "Lo Sachmod". Lust is truly a poison, and the nature of lust is that "the more you feed it, the more you need it". One can never get enough of lust. In the end, either we win it over or it wins us over.



GUE- thanks for those two paragraphs.


It simply never occurred to me - during almost 15 years of getting worse - that I need to do whatever it takes to stop or I will die. When it finally did, I got the help I needed and stopped.


When i reached that point i was able to "kick" alcohol.
Last Edit: by strugglingyid.
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