.

Ani Hakatan would say that you absolutly made a kiddush hashem!! Thanks!!

And there will always be things we dont understand!

Why don't you grab their arms (metaphorically speaking) and help them dive deeper?

To a certain extent, he's right. We don't believe in a fire-and-brimstone hell. After all, a soul isn't afraid of a little BBQ! To a large extent, from what I understand, heaven is the same for everyone - it's open access to spirituality, pure and holy. For some people, that's gan eden. For some people it's...not.

Hey LeivTahorBeraLi,
it already seems like you have a solid plan in place and there's nothing like dropping knowledge on the goyim in your classes, so to speak.  ;D i can completely relate to what you're saying with the troubles posed by college (even though i'm only in high school). i'd just say when you're out and about on campus, work hardest on shemiras einayim. thats probably your best bet and will help a lot in many areas.

If your college is anything like mine, it has got to be about the most spiritually degenerate place in the world. College for many people is an extended childhood where people get to act like little kids even though they are grown up. So people do as little work as possible, get drunk whenever they can, trumpet their opinions on everything and expect to be taken seriously (even if they have done no research at all), and, I'm not joking, in my college there is a "tradition" of men and women running *naked* through the library during study week before final exams. It is revolting and basically a throwback to age 3.

Since I am trying to be a frum yid, I basically keep to my own and learn with my rabbi when he is on campus (which B'H is quite a lot). There are always decent folks to be found if you know where to look. But sometimes you really have to know where to look.

I can go on and on about how degenerate college is these days. I struggle every day with it. And regarding R Soloveitchik and others who went to college, I can assure you that University in Berlin in the 20's or 30's was NOTHING like your average American college in 2010.

Yes and no. There are different levels of soul-cleansing. The highest level of gehennom (in which the innermost parts of the neshama are cleansed) is purely shame. Not shame as we know it, but spiritual infinite shame. The person simply stands before G-d with his actions of rebellion revealed before himself (and H-shem of course). Any type of hell you can imagine is infinitely better than this. This is the absolute most torturous experience which exists within creation.

Additionally, there are lower levels of cleansing which lead up to this, in which the more external blemishes are purged. These levels resemble the fire type, and can even take place here on earth.

Shaar hagilgulim discusses this at length. See also Reishis chochmah shaar hayirah ch. 12.

Many of the seforim which describe the details of the gehennom experience, speak allegorically. So you need to be discerning as to what they really mean. Especially since a spiritual experience simply cannot be described by human language, and only hinted at to those who already are aware of the type of experience, in a way of referral as opposed to explanation.

This is the reason why I came down so hard in your original thread. Wearing a yarmulka and having your tzitzis out is nice, but what are you doing in a philosophy class? It's kefira 101! Fortunately, I've always been able to stay away from classes like that.

There will always be pretty young girls with little clothing on walking around. You must be vigilant. Spend as little time on campus as you can.

There are so many frum, seperate gender programs today where people can learn a respectable job and get a degree. Isn't it possible to look into one of those? College in 2010 is a spiritual wasteland and the worst possible place for an addict to be. How long can a frum yid hold out in shmiras ainayim and shmiras habris in such a place?

Hashem should give you the strength to make the right decisions.

My understanding, like you said, is not that it's fun and games (or gumballs and rainbows. Personally, I like the texture of gumballs better than rainbows, those get stale quickly).

Imagine...a person lives his whole life involved in the wrong things, connecting to the wrongs things, making himself into a non-spiritual person. So he comes to heaven, and he's face-to-face with the reality of the life he wasted, the opportunity he had, what he could have gotten - closeness to hashem - and he fully understands how great that is. And he has nothing, and it's totally his fault. No excuses. The shame, the hurt, the feeling of loss are incredible. And keep in mind - firstly, because everything is so clear, this is far beyond even the strongest feelings of embarrassment that we've had in this world. Plus, embarrassment is an emotion, and os in this world, it's limited by the physical body. In the next world, we have an infinite capacity for spiritual feelings...which include things like emotions. Infinite embarrassment...I can see how that might be compared to a fire.

If moving is an option, you might want to look into that. Otherwise, in the meantime, keep figuring out how you can connect to the right things - sounds like you're already doing a lot of that!

Keep on trucking!

LeivTahorBeraLi,

Is there a reason you need to be taking specifically philosophy classes in college? You can try to stick to parve subjects such as Math and (most) Science, or foreign languages. I am a Math major and have managed to squeek by since becoming Frum without taking any courses that are mired in sheker.

Kollel Guy wrote on 26 Jan 2010 06:39:


I firmly believe this is very topic but in the introduction to "Strive for the Truth" Rabbi Carmel writes that he once remarked to Rav Desslar that you obosily don't take the fire and brimstone approach to reward and punishment. Rav Desslar got very serios with him and said that for those who it workd for it is wonderful bit for many in our times that is not an approach they will conect to.

There is the concept that there is punishment, in the sense that our actions have consequences. But it's much more intrinsic than "fire and brimstone" - in the same way that our reward for mitzvos are intrinsic - it's not like when you go to a carnival, and you go to a bunch of booths and win tickets, and then you trade the tickets in for a chinese checkers set (the prize has nothing to do with putting out a candle with a water gun, or guessing whether you drank sprite or 7up).

Rather, our reward is the exact connection that we built with hashem from the mitzvah that we did. Presumably, an aveirah works the same way, just in reverse.

Philosophy courses certainly seem interesting...but they open us up to all kinds of krum ideas, which we're sure won't effect us. But truth is, that anything we hear effects us, and putting ourselves in that situation is the equivalent of accepting any possible results. Including an extreme twisting of our values, a diminished emunah, or worse.

silentbattle wrote on 26 Jan 2010 22:47:

Even the study of "jewish philosophy" is fraught with danger. The Rambam only wrote the moreh nevuchim because philosophy was all the rage back then and many jewish people were being sucked in. This was his response. The Ashkenazi rabbanim like R' Yonah were very anti this approach because philosophy is not from Sinai and many people can be led astray by convincing arguments. Our emunah is meant to come from a mesorah that we were taken out of Egypt by G-d and received the Torah from Sinai directly from him - the national revelation.

Even R' Yehuda HaLevi, in his work The Kuzari, was reluctant to talk in purely philosophical terms.

LeivTahorBeraLi wrote on 25 Jan 2010 23:39:



Back to the topic. Make sure to learn some mussar every day. If you can learn a 1/2 hour a day of mussar. Think deeply about ( the collage with the minhag you mentioned is for very bright people so I assume you are very bright and you can understand what you are learning very well) look for ways to apply it. Ask yourself if you are holding on the madragah you are learning about and if you are not think about how far are you from it and how can you get there. If you can understand it try Ali Shur from Rav Wolbe.

If Ali Shur vol II Rav Wolbe has a chapter where he explains how to approach learning mussar.

Also stay focused on the moment. Lust moves us in to fantasy land and we run to find those fantasies, but when we get there we learn that it is empty.

Also remember that even when we get off topic we are thinking of you.

I'd say discuss it with a rebbe (if you can) before making the decision...but - WOW! Your calculation is absolutely correct, but if only we could all look at things so honestly!

You are a truly incredible person!

Rock on!