Hi fellow Yiddin,

I am new to the site, but what I've seen so far is extremely comforting. Before I saw this sight, I thought my cause was hopeless. I knew I could never tell anyone my sins in person and here comes this website to allow me to gain advice from people who are in the same boat as me and from poeple who have gone beyond the natural tendencies of man and succeeded.

I am a college student who learns half the day. I need to stop immediately. The internet is the biggest Yetzer Harah since the Nachash in the story of Adam and Chava. Many times I feel they are comparable. The Nachash told Chava that Hashem said she couldnt touch the tree. When in reality Hashem said she couldnt eat from it. After the Nachash pushed Chava into the tree, she saw that maybe the whole condition is canceled and she could now even it from it. We all know the rest of the story.  And what was Chava's punishment? She had to go through painfull childbirths. From the Men's perspective we can see this as us doing the same. When we are Nichshal and do this evil sin, we are causing ourselves to go through a painfull childbirth. I dont know about anyone else, but after I finish giving in to my Yetzer Harah, I have the worst feeling in the world. It hurts more than any exterior wound. I really feel like "Shir Hama'alos Mimamakim Kerasicha Hashem!" It genuinely feels like calling to Hashem for help from the depths of earth, like Im on the brink of entering Gehinom. So, if we are about to be Nichshal we should try to rememebr that feeling that we had after the previous time, like were are going through childbirth so that next time we will actually think about our actions and not let our minds go astray.

I really daven everyday that everyone who wishes to, should have the Koach to destroy this Yezer Harah.
Hashem: Please all the Jews here have such holy intentions, give them the strength!

everyone should have a great day and keep your eyes down when walking, constantly think about Torah and what Hashem would want, and daven. (i wish that would all be as easy to do as it is to write)

If you are dealing with a strong addiction, it doesn't really help very much to remember the feelings last time. An addiction is so powerful that it is like standing on the railroad tracks and watching the train bearing down on you, and yet not being able to move away.

Instead, there are tried and proven methods for dealing with addictions. We are coming out with a booklet soon of steps that we can try, from the most basic (for less severe addictions) to more intense and life-changing tactics, for more severe addictions. I think everyone will have a lot to learn from it, and it will help us all to gauge our addiction level.

Dearest  Holy Brother in battle Ineedhelp!!

You will get lots of help from the good and honest people here.
If you focus on need of help it can be part of the addiction .You need to WANT help and you will be helped.YOU can do it holt tzaddik I am B"H going strong only because of the good people here.
please read this it is  something I posted last week.let me know if you need  an explanation.

bardichev wrote on 30 Apr 2009 20:40:

Dear Ineedhelp:

Your e-mail was beautiful and captured the feeling of the struggle so well. I am a recovering lust addict. I will not go into the exact behaviors included in my MO (beyond what you have mentioned) here because this is not the venue. Nevertheless, it is essential for me to be explicit with my sponsor and trusted friends and tell them excatly what I have done in the past and be clear about what I have a goofy compulsion to do today, in order to learn honesty (not sappy guilt talk - something I am good at and flows easily) and also to in order to become willing to really let these things go. I never let go of them if they are secrets! Ouch.
Your email and probably lots of other stuff you do are steps in a great turnaround for you. But are you talking these things out with someone or are there secrets you are too ashamed or frightened to tell? That is incredibly normal, but maybe what works for me and others will help you, too.  Ineedhelp, and so do many others, too.

One more thing. You wrote about beating this yetzer hora, destroying it, etc. I won't get into theology, shittos of mussar and kabbalah, just what works for me and my friends and ask you this question:
What if you were guaranteed to be free of the behaviors, guilt, and hirhurim that vex you so deeply, as well as the nagging fear of wondering "when the next time I mess up" will be? Great, no? Well, how about if the way you got that would be w/o destroying, breaking or beating this yetzer hora at all? What if you could learn how to sidestep it? To live with it yet not be afraid of it, nor struggle with it - just not give it the time of day. If that could happen for you one day at a time - guaranteed - would you accept it? Or do you feel the need to struggle with it until you win? Please consider this deeply and, if you'd like, let me know what your choice would be. I spent fifteen years in the struggle...
I think this question touches on what might be the greatest obstacle frum yidden (myself included) have/had with quitting (and not starting again!).
No! Don't give up the fight, EVER! But lets get clear exactly who/what you are fighting, no?
With love and respect to, you, someone who understands me better than most ever will...Dov

Hey guys,

I only have a few minutes so ill have to make this short. Today is my day 1. Things are going well so far. I am trying to be aware of every action I take. i walk with my head down and constantly say to myself in my head: "Why are you taking this action and why are your eyes where they are" it has really helped me thus far. I feel my actiuons are more meaningful and even though I have slipped for a moment here and there with my eyes, I ask myslef why I just did that and keep building my mind to become stronger. hopefully this will work. This is my day 1 of B'H many days to come. I have to go to class now so take care evryone and they you for the Chizuk in your responses.

Have a meaningfull day everyone!

P.S I will read your question later previous poster. I just dont have time to think now. not sure if thats a good thing or a bad thing but thats the way it is.

Wow, Dov, this is so deep! So tell us, who ARE we fighting?

Hi Ineedhelp,
your post was so inspiring.  With your attitude and emotions, you will surely succeed.  I have no doubt.  However, make sure to stick with us here, become part of the club and no running away no matter what.  If you ever fail again, chas V'shalom we will be here to catch you.  There is no need to be embarrassed.  We are your new family.  You can feel free to express your emotions openly without getting criticized (I hope!).  We are here to share your pain in your suffering and your joy in your redemption.  You can grow at your own pace and seek advice when you need it.  If you feel we are over stepping our boundaries, let us know.  We are all here to encourage each other and learn from each other.  The beauty of this site is that you can post as little or as much as you want.  You do not have to wait your turn.  You do not need an audience.  So, welcome to the family and POST, POST, POST.  

Your post brought out some very fundamental points that I wish to highlight for you.  Remind yourself of your own yesodos.  There is nothing like learning from your own wisdom.  concentrate on this and you will soon understand more great yesodos as you stick with this site.  The idea is to internalize it all.  

Ineedhelp!! wrote on 04 May 2009 05:15:

This is amazing!  This statement has a few yesodos I would like to explain.  
Number one, The Rabbis tell us that there is a heavenly voice that emanates from Sinai every day saying "Return my children".  But where is this voice?  The voice is in your heart.  If you look in parshas Teshuva, it states we can hear the voice of Hashem.  That voice is the same voice that emanates from sinai.  So, rejoice that are able to hear that voice. Depending on a person's level, the voice is louder.
Number 2, The terrible feeling you have is truly amazing.  Be aware of this and let this encourage you for true teshuvah.  The Rabbis tell us that when we feel bad it is a sign that we are still connected to our inner self, the neshama.  The more a person gets addicted the more concealed his neshama becomes, and the harder it is for him to feel spirituality and feel remorse for his sins.  This makes it harder for him to do teshuvah and it destroys his spiritual feelings.  The fact that it hurts so much is a great sign that you hanging on tight to the spiritual ropes up above.  Now discover that true self of yours, uncover the concealed and let that neshama shine.  You know what you want.  You feel what you want.  Act on your feelings.
Number 3, you state that you feel like calling out to Hashem.  This is a precious feeling.  You need to act on it and hold on to it.  Meaning, daven daven daven.  Daven for help.  Daven to come close to Hashem.  Daven for inspiration.  Daven for insight how to properly address your addiction.  Daven to Hashem to accept your teshuvah.  Even after the 'remorse' stage finishes, you need to keep davening.  Many people make the mistake that when they feel remorse they get intense and then when the stage falls away, they lose focus.  Never lose focus of your addiction and your teshuvah.  For some people who have intense remorse, like yourself, breaking free is easy.  But maintaining freedom is harder.  

Ineedhelp!! wrote on 04 May 2009 05:15:

This is so fundamental.  Especially for you that felt that pain so much.  But, I would like to add a piece of advice to this worthy principle.  Do not wait until the next nisayon.  Remind yourself now how bad it was.  This will create negative associations with your past experience with the internet. What I mean by that is that you had two opposite emotions from the addiction.  During the sin, you enjoyed it.  But after, you despised it.  You want it to be etched in memory the bad feelings, not the good feelings.  If you ever think back about it, you will remember the pain it cause you, not the fake joy it gave you.  By doing this, you may never have a real nisayon again.  But more importantly, you are laying the first foundation of removing yourself from your old life.  We know there are many levels of teshuvah.  The main aspect of teshuva is the charata.  Charata itself has many steps.  But the first step is internalizing the bad feeling you describe.  This is also the first step for eternal growth.

Ineedhelp!! wrote on 04 May 2009 05:15:

Two points:
Number one, As stated above, guard this yesod for life.  Keep davening.  The gemara in kiddushin (81b) states that the way to daven to destroy the yetzer hara is to to ask hashem to destroy him.  The gemara says that the yetzer hara gets insulted when we talk to him directly.  But he does not mind if we ask hashem to destroy him.  So, before you go to sleep, state the pasuk from zecharia, printed in all sidurim, "יגער ד' בך השטן".  That is what the gemara in kiddushin says to do. And if you could, repeat this all day long.  The steipler writes regarding these nisyonos, that some people need to daven 50 times a day to be protected.  Whatever it takes.
Number two,  If you wish, you can destroy him, with the help of hashem as explained above. By learning self control and working on diminishing your inner desires, which takes time and patience, the yetzer hara will be weakened over time.  But do not skip any levels.  The Rabbis tell us that when a person does teshuvah sheleima, he can destroy the yetzer hara.  Even more so, The Rabbis explain the reason of the nisayon is to recapture the the lost energy in the world and destroy the evil in the world.

Ineedhelp!! wrote on 04 May 2009 05:15:

The more you write, the easier it is to do!

Once again, thanks for joining the family.  We are really looking forward to having another warrior with us.

May you be zoche to teshuvah sheleima

Wow! I really have 2 say thank you to all of you not only those who replied but to those who viewed my post as well ait is all Chizuk to me one way or another.

A few comments:

1) I would like to say Baruch Hashem I have gone through day 2 of my "new" life. today was more difficult than the first day. My eyes floated away a little, but B'H it didnt lead to anything serious. I keep trying to say in my head Mamash constantly:"THINK OF EVERY ACTION, THINK OF EVERY STEP. WHY ARE YOUR EYES WHERE THEY ARE, IS THIS WHAT HASHEM WOULD WANT?" literally every second that Im on the move. so first it has worked pretty well.

2)Someone please tell me if this is a wrong or right feeling that I have about Hashem and our situations: Hashem wouldnt put us in a bad situation for our Neshamas in which it was impossible to get out. Hashem put us in this situation because he KNOWS we can get out. If Hashem were to put someone else in this situation, they would not and could not succeed. Why is that? Because the reason WE can succeed in this situation is because Hashem put special Kochos in us that we need to realize and tap into, but other people dont have these Kochos to tap into, they have others. Others that we cant tap into. This is not to say that we are better than everyone because I speak for myself alone when I say I am obviously not, but if they were put in the same situation that were, they would have to have these Kochos in order to succeed.

Please tell me if this thought is correct. I need feedback to understand my situation.

I love all of you like my family now. It is a very warming feeling
Thank you have a great and meaningful day/night!

IneedHelp, you hit the nail on the head! Here is a quote from the new GuardYourEyes attitude booklet which I will be announcing shortly to everyone (it still needs a little polishing up):

Redirecting the power in our souls

We have often discovered that we were trying to fight only the disease, rather than building and changing ourselves. For true long term success, we must learn to fight the cause of the addiction and not just the symptoms.

The Pasuk says “Bitachbulos Taseh Lecha Milchama – with cunning, make your battle”. Says the Medrash, if you did many chavilos (bundles) of sins, do chaveilos of Mitzvos opposite them. The Beis Ahron of Karlin explains that chavilos is a language of hiskashrus - connection, (as it says “Yaakov Chevel Nachalaso”), and he explains that in order to fix what we did in the past and break free from the “other side”, we need to use the same hiskashrus and enthusiasm that filled our mind and limbs during the times we sinned, and instead do the Mitzvos in the same all-consuming and enthusiastic manner.

In general, those who struggle a lot with these issues, have a great deal of emotional and spiritual energy inside them. It is they who actually have the capacity and potential for the most intense spiritual connection with Hashem. We just need to learn how to channel the energy of our souls in the proper ways.

It is also known, that people with particular character traits, such as creativity, love for people and spiritual sensitivity, are more prone to seeking alternate expression for their inner strengths through a stronger than usual sexual drive. That is why it is so important to learn how to channel these strengths we have in the proper ways. Heightened sexual desire is actually a symptom of a deep subconscious need, that has still not reached fulfillment for some reason.

Our Sages have said: “Who ever is greater than his friend, His Yetzer is greater as well”. It is important to understand that in a psychological sense, the Yetzer Tov and Yetzer Hara are really the same inner force. The greater a person is, the more his soul's strengths require expression, and these strengths will ultimately burst forth and find expression in either a positive or a negative way.

So let us direct our spiritual vigor into our prayers. We will be amazed how uplifting they can become! And let us start doing the mitzvos with enthusiasm and learn Torah with passion! We were given a gift by Hashem because the struggles we are experiencing are really just the vibes of our souls, striving for genuine expression and a true connection with the Almighty.

Our divine service can be so much more than average if we use the struggle in the way it was intended by Hashem, as a spring-board for growth. Spiritual progress that might take other people many years of intense divine service to achieve, we can attain through this struggle in a very short time, if we use it right!

It can also be very helpful to seek alternative ways of connecting to Hashem to find inner fulfillment. We can seek out Chesed projects, Torah projects or study ever new areas of techniques in divine service. For that is really what our souls are really yearning for; a meaningful connection with Hashem and fulfilling that which we came down to the world to accomplish.

It is also important to point out, that instead of running frantically away from the Yetzer Hara in fear, we can learn to run instead towards Hashem with joy. If we do this, the Yetzer Hara falls away by himself. As the Sefarim say: “Sur mera”. How? Through “Aseh Tov”!

Ineedhelp!! wrote on 06 May 2009 02:38:


Thank you Guard for addressing this issue and bringing it to light.  Ineedhelp, the best source I can find for this concept is from Rav Tzadok, tzidkas hatzadik (#44).  He address this precise issue.  He writes that if a person has major temptations he should not get saddened about a blemish in his soul but on the contrary he should be glad to realize that he has special kochos that need to directed for the correct reasons, precisely as you surmised and guard confirmed. He explains that is what Chazal [succah 52a] meant by “Who ever is greater than his friend, His Yetzer is greater as well”, exactly as Guard stated. The context of the Gemara is regarding desiring lust.

However, the rambam in Shemone perakim, chapter six, at first glance seems to disagree with this in his conclusion as he grapples with a fundamental philosophical issue.  He states that the perfected soul is one who does not desire any physicality.  He addresses the Gemara in succah, and gives a unique explanation to the  Gemara.  I do not know how it fits with the context of the Gemara.  Rav Nachman, M'Breslov (Likutei Moran, #72) also makes it clear that a person that desires physicality, has a blemished soul.  He explains the Gemara in Succah differently than the Rambam. However, to reconcile these sources with Rav Tzadok, we can explain easily.  Rav Tzadok may agree with the Rambam that a person who desires lust and physicality has a blemished soul, as I will explain soon.  He is just explaining that this soul has tremendous potential for good, and he can eventually obliterate that desire for lust. But as long as he is still desiring lust, even if he not doing any sins, he is blemished.

Later on, (around siman 60, I do not remember exactly) Rav Tzadok explains based on the zohar that the Dor Hamabul and the Dor Hamidbar, who received the Torah share the same neshama.  He explains the reason is based on the above principle.  The Dor Hamabul's major sin was spilling seed, as is well known from all the kabalistic oriented seforim, and the Dor Hamidbar were zoche to receive the Torah.  He explains that the spiritaul energy is one in the same. The true desire for Torah and spirituality is the same fake desire for lust; two sides of the same coin.  He explains further, that this generation will appear once again in Yemos Hamashiach, whereby the koach hatov will overpower the koach hara and create total peace.  The koach HaTorah will overpower the koack of lust.

For a thorough description of this beautiful principle that you brought to light, you can read Guard's chizuk email, on this page, email #412-#415.

Wow, great sources! Thanks Yakov!

I once hear from the Mashgiach of lake wood R'Mattisyahu salamon .That we are very close to moshiachs day and the Y"H is WIIIIIIIIIILD he is dancing his final dance.It is very possible that according to this the Y"H is going against what we may consider stendard warfare and took on terroristic guerrilla tactics.

My philosophy has changed in the past 6 weeks I also grappled with emunah questions.Then I said to myself hey bardichev this is atzas hayetzter when I was totally out of control viewing as much ---n as possible did I ask Groiseh emunah questions no I said im shvach ineed this stuff im depressed ill worry about this another time.
Tzaddik fight Y"H back with his own weapons now you are doing good tell him you will tackle the big emunah questions another time .Now do what everyone here recommends break free stay clean post post post post away stay on this site ther are such good people here.

CHAZAAAAAAAAAAK !!!!! SHTAAAAARK!!!!
humble and happy
bardichev

Hi Ineedhelp!! - Your posts were good to read. An answer to the question you posted above actually rests in the answer to the question I posed to you earlier. The other responders touched on the same idea, as well. My experience sufferring much as you described, was that no, Hashem does not put us in a nisayon we cannot get out of. The timeline and success is not always as we expect it to be, though. What I mean is this: It seems to me you are concerned with having the ability to withstand the taavoh and not do aveiros. Now,if we had diabetes or a mental disease and a doctor would recommend immediate medical treatment, most of us would do it. OK, ALL of us would, I hope.
Well, in my case, this was not so simple. Dr Twersky told me I needed a 12-step fellowship years before I did that. The reason I didn't listen was because it seemed so outrageous to make such a major change in my schedule and lifestyle. Also, compromising my secrecy (mainly from my wife) was too scary to risk. I needed to get much, much worse, until it seemed a fair deal...ouch. I have been sober in SA since then.
The point I am trying to pass on is that just because this problem involves aveiros, and just because it is a major issue of our time as many tzaddikim have shown us, and just because it may have started out as a rather common teenage problem, does not mean that it is not a true sickness. If we slipped and broke a leg, for example, would we think: "Hey, I don't have the kochos to overcome this. I can't even walk! How could Hashem have given this to me?" Probably not. We'd get treatment and then use our kochos hanefesh to push ourselves to heal and strengthen the leg and deal with the behavioral issues and nisyonos it brought up for us (patience with others, not whining, seclusion and overdependence, etc.) that can grow out of such an injury. Well, crazy people do aveiros too. They often do not have the power to beat their diseased thinking and learned behaviors.
I needed meetings, fellowship, phone calls, steps, lots of stepwork in writing. I continue to need all those after many years. I have not beaten my yetzer hora in any way, as far as I am aware. Hashem has given me a free pass. Not really free, though, because the price I need to "pay" is being his eved to the best of my ability. As soon as I start to compromise onmy integrity withmy wife, children, fellow man, I start to becaome aware that I am not living in an honest relationship with Hashem anymore and I need to take steps to correcyt that immediately. (like my typinmgZ). It is only Hashem that deals with my yetzer hora, as far as I am concerned.
Whenever I have a hirhur, I turn to Hashem as quickly as possible and say "help Tatty"; then move right on to my business and say thank-You as soon as I realize the struggle is way behind me somewhere. Where did it go? I cannot afford to turn back and analyze whether I did it or Hashem did it, or if my heart is purified. To heck with my heart! Let Hashem take care of it. The only thing that concerns me whenever I'm in any trouble, is: "am I doing what Hashem wants right now?" Later, when I feel no struggle (might be next hour, day, or month) I can afford to go back and look at it, sometimes.
The answer my life has been teaching me to the question of who are we fighting is: we are really fighting ourselves. Only with help can we succeed. As long as I dug my heels in and insisted I was engaged with the yetzer hora, my behavior just got worse. I had more secrets from the people I acted like I was close with. That was living a lie. Hashem obviously does not want me to live a lie and be goneiv daas of my wife for the sake of teshuvah! Than NEVER occured to be, as the preciousness and importance of fighting this nisayon far overshadowed everything else in my life (even my learning and davening was focused on it 90% of the time). It never occurred to me that avodas hashem is not supposed to be a heavy package to bear!
(There is a beautiful Dubno Maggid story to this effect, that Hashem's "package" is not a heavy one - at least it isn't supposed to be -"shver tzuzein a yid" often we make it into one!)
Once it became clear to me that I was quite nuts, I got the help the fellowship and 12 steps offer and learned how to become simply honest w/my problem and accepting of Hashems help in a poshuteh way. I simply couldn't do it before, even though I was asking for it frequently!
Everything was a deep and profound religious issue for me then!
Still, I like to remember that all the tricks, eitzos, pesukim and chizuk are tools and half-measures. They help, but only partially. My wish for people is that they do not unnecessarily delay the solution. The only full measure for me is learning how to lean on Hashem in trust. But really doing that requires much more than religiosity and nesiras nefesh (which can be guilt or fear-driven). I was like a scared rabbit before the yetzer hora for years! Hashem does not want a "nation of scared rabbits", he wants a nation of kohanim (meaning "givers" and "leaders" - from the chesed side)! The easier and more natural connection with Hashem that seems to help people get free of this mess has a big price. It requires honesty, acceptance of the truth about myself, and leads to sanity. Derech eretz Kodmah leTorah. Perek 1-5 of Pirkei Avos come before Perek 6 on Torah. These basics of sanity are often bought with considerable pain, as we fight against it for some reason - some of us to the last man, some of us till they are just sick and tired...But once  sanity started to get its little foot in the door of my mind, the Torah and Mitzvos slowly started to function correctly. (That took time and is for another topic.) The nisyonos reduced, and I started to have a single, not a double, life. I know this is the most important thing Hashem wants for me, rather than being real frum and yet completely unable to maintain a shred of integrity and self-respect at the same time. I want better for my child.
One more thing.
I love you and respect you a great deal for what you have written, but more so simply because you are a fellow sufferrer. Whether you get a refuas hanefesh or not, my feelings will not change and I thank Hashem for showing me yet another precious yid like me.

Dearest Dov, I want you to know that I gather up your posts and save them by me like precious Jewels - Kimotzeis Shalal Rav. I then incorporate many of your ideas into Chizuk e-mails and into our website (and into the handbooks that are coming out tomorrow). There is nothing in the world as beautiful, precious and true to the mark, as the experience of old-time strugglers like you, who have been all the way there and have come all the way back - as heroes in shining armor!

Dov,

Your posts remind of some books I’ve read where there are layers of meaning beneath each utterance of the main character.  There’s the poshut p’shat that reads fine, but if you’re truly focused and have immersed yourself in the plot, there are layers of ever deeper meanings and connections that come alive.  There’s a lot going on between the lines.  If your level of concentration is somewhere in between or you haven’t read all the preceding books in the series, you know that there’s a lot more going on but are not getting it with perfect clarity.  This can be frustrating, especially since the author is not there to ask.  B”H you are reachable on the forum!  So here are some questions.

First, keeping your struggle from your wife pops up a few times in the last post:




I too struggle with how open to be with my wife.  She is my life partner and we have a very good relationship B”H.  I told her about my problem without mincing words when I began my recovery 9 months ago.  It was a difficult step, unprecedented for me, and my commitment to tell her if I fall is a huge element of my “accountability program”.  However since then, other than occasional assurances that I have nothing to report, I have not filled her in on the day to day details of my recovery, which are not insignificant to me.  Am I making the package needlessly heavy or is this not what you mean?  I hesitate to tell her all because I don’t know how she’ll react.  Even though I have only “good news” to report each day, I fear that she may see it as evidence of a problem that is larger than she’d thought (although I did not minimize it or really characterize it in any particular way) and become obsessed and unhappy, not knowing how to swallow it.

Second, what do you mean when you say:
  Is this the beginning of true recovery or was it an impediment to true recovery?

Third, you say:




I try very hard to be honest and accept the truth about myself.  But I don’t know what it is!!    I don’t know if my self assessment is accurate, if I’m taking this too far or not far enough.  How do you figure this out?

Thanks for sharing the lessons you’ve learned the hard way…hopefully it well help us avoid some of the same mistakes.