Kollel Guy wrote on 17 Jan 2010 18:36:

in general i would stay away from this type of second guessing . true or not . its not relevant . when the time comes we may see the logic on our own . but lets not let it indermine our trust in our guiding lights .all we have .
as far as the original Q, if they had a full blown ban on internet i never would've touched it.still be an addict tho'.

lamed vavnik wrote on 17 Jan 2010 18:15:


No, it just means that people don't listen.

I was thinking a little more about this ban.  I think it was against Chareidi sites, wasn't it?

But not non-chareidi sites!!!  GOYISHE SITES!!!

Although this seems ironic at first, it really makes sense:

People who NEED the internet for work AREN'T using the chareidi sites for their business needs.

So, who's using the Chareidi sites?  People who otherwise WOULDN'T be using the internet.  But now, with Chareidi sites, IT'S KOSHER!  Isn't it?  So it must really be OK!!!

I am not sure that is accurate.

I use the web for work and torah.

That being said maybe overall the feeling is that the internet hurts more than it helps. 

The would rather protect the innocent than worry about us.

I hope R'Guard has no plans in shutting us down.

lamed vavnik wrote on 17 Jan 2010 18:15:


36, you crack me up!

Here's my take - I don't get involved. I do my best to remind myself that if I disagree with the gedolei Hador, then I'm probably(!) wrong.

If there's a disagreement, then I try to discuss it with my rebbe/rav, and follow what he tells me to do. the fact that he tells me one thing, though, does NOT mean that the other rabbanim are foolish, or wrong.

For example - let's say that the internet ban kept the internet out of 20 houses. That may have kept a teenager from seeing porn for another 2 years.

Is that worth it? Methinks it very well might be.

And yes, the internet can be a tool for good...but it's also a tool for unprecedented easy access to evil. Seems to me it doesn't balance out, because there were always lots of easy ways to get a dvar torah - but porn is now FAR more accessible.

And also yes, people looked at porn before the internet came along - but in far smaller numbers. Now it's easy, it's free, it's anonymous, and it happens in a few seconds of weakness.

As I mentioned before, I think for us addicts - we are in a whole different situation, because without GUE we will one by one all slip back to doing exactly what they are trying to protect us from.
We 'cannot stay away from the danger without this site', as opposed to the other chareidi sites which technically 'bring us closer to the danger'.

I realy should have read all the posts, "this is sooo" my kinda discussion, but I'm gonna have to rely on Kollel Guy.

I heard in a shiur from R pinkus, about banning both the computer AND internet (dial-up of his day), and he labeled it a "Takana She'iy efshar la'amod bo" [rabbinic regulation that most of the torah observant populace cannot meet-up to]. And therefore halachikly the ban shouldn't be issued. He himself testifies on tape as-to HOW MANY computers he owned in his house, and the great benefit they served him in writing his sefarim (I don't know which, since all the "red ones" are his speaches, and he only wrote 3 tiferes shimshon, shabbos malkisa, and one on tefialh).

It's also funny to hear him talk about an avreich from ofakim that turned SA, and ran-off to a third world country to live with his shiksah gf. oh yeh he was also a "kollel guy" (no offense KG but you got a name like 'Reuvain', too generic,  and you know how many times Reuvain dies in yevamos!!? B"H 'Levi' usualy has arichas yamim  )

Oh and he tells a story about a yarei shamayim in Bnei Brak who took his virus laden computer to get fixed, and when he returned to pick it up, the store owner showed him how his kids had caused the problem... when he say the pornography pics, he fainted. Baruch hashem hatzalah revived him. otherwise the store owned would have literally been mekayeim the pasuk of "lo ta'amod al dam reicha". Needless to say he didn't bring it home.

It's actually wuite amusing to hear him talk of the dial-up connections of his day. And their harm. but i wan't able to find a SINGLE thing to be out-dated or irrelevent. the only synical thought one could justify is , "If he only knew that verizon would make a fiber optic network!!!! HE would have fainted!!

Yeah but he's usually the guy getting jacked for all his money because there are no eidim. What kind of life is that?

Eye.nonymous wrote on 17 Jan 2010 20:03:
exactly . but the gedolim must still say what needs to be said for the people that WILL listen. they aren't talking to the people that won't listen.

lamed vavnik wrote on 18 Jan 2010 19:27:


The Rabonim cannot be Gozer something that they KNOW the general populous wont listen to

Yiddle2 wrote on 18 Jan 2010 20:58:


A complete ban would indeed be a "Gezaira She'ain Rov HaTzibbur Yecholim Laamod Ba" - unless the ban were addressing only those who are not connected in any event.  Presumably that's why I haven't heard of any attempt to ban cigarettes, which I think would be a great idea, and probably would cause at least a handful of people in Klal Yisrael to quit smoking, arguably justifying such a ban.  However, if 99.99% of people disregard a ban, the ban will have been Goreim a tremendous Chillul Hashem.

Kedusha wrote on 18 Jan 2010 21:07:


And without trying to be stereotypical, a ban on cigarettes would be mostly towards the people that follow those Rabonim closely.

Yiddle2 wrote on 18 Jan 2010 21:09:


Eh...not sure about that...I see plenty of people who aren't yeshivish smoking, too...the guy in the marlboro ads might be wearing a hat, but he still doesn't look yeshivish... :D

And as far as rabbanim being gozer something...one has to know what it means that the general population "won't" listen to, vs. "can't" listen to - might make a difference...especially considering the fact that there's a strong tzad to say that the internet is already assur me'ikur hadin (the same wya you're not allowed to take a shortcut past the ladies washing clothes), and the rabbanim are just informing you of that.

silentbattle wrote on 18 Jan 2010 23:21:


Such a shortcut would be permitted if the longer route is not practical (e.g. it's a much further distance).  Similarly, trying to do research (and many other legitimate activities) offline would not be efficient.

silentbattle wrote on 18 Jan 2010 23:21:


Thats why i said "I dont mean to be stereotypical". Although there are many non-Yeshivish people that smoke, if the Rabanim were to decree against smoking, alot of it would be towards that sect.