i pretty much think we all do.

May Hashem send you the right one at the right time, and may He make the wait easier to bear...

Amen - and the same to you!

And may the right time for all of us be sooner, rather than later...

amen, and amen

silentbattle, I think I'm going to take you up on your offer to make the battle less silent :D
We'll get in touch via PM to work out the details. I can see from your posts that you are single. How old are you, if you don't mind my asking? I'm just curious how close in age we are.

You know how many times guys said to me " my girlfriend is sooooooooo hot" .... well I strongly disagreed. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Also, if you think about it, a girl can have a huge range - when lifes tough, and she's put on a lil weight, and no makeup.... she can be quite unattractive.... but put her through the "cleans up nice machine" and they can be stunning.

Which leads to the following:

I need to be comfortable w/ the way she looks on an average day - if I'm annoyed by certain "defects" (bad teeth is one my pet peeves) then its gonna bother me the rest of my life. If there aren't any annoyances, and she cleans up nice... than its fine. I think my mom once said that my dad always sees her as she was when she married him - thin and pretty. When he looks at her, thats all he sees... even though she's changed quite a bit since then. I hope I can do the same. If my wife cleans up nice, when I look at her, thats all I want to see. Likewise, I realize I will be losing my hair.... my wife hopefully will also "not realize." 

I absolutely agree that you need to feel comfortable. And yes, there are certain things that we've found to bother us. I would simply point out that it might be possible that at some point in the future, you COULD find yourself attracted to, say, someone with bad teeth. And if that happens, leave yourself open to it!

And yes, guys as well as girls should try to look attractive to their spouses - nothing wrong with that.

(side point: As it happens, I'm very much not into makeup. That's just my thing, though.)

Here's my take, and what I've found to be true - as other people here have mentioned, the closer you connect with someone, the more attractive they become to you - partially because you see their inner beauty in their outside, and partially because you start to focus on the positive aspects. And that can allow you to see through the messy clothes from cleaning all day (especially when she's cleaning up YOUR mess, and cleaning up after the kids), etc.

I'll even go a step further, and say that the more you connect with her, the more you become part of a unified team, the more you see her as part of you. And no matter how unkempt WE are, we always see ourselves as relatively good looking, give or take!

So as time goes on, and age takes its toll on both of you, that same time allows us to grow spiritually, and grow closer together, MORE than offsetting the physical effects of passing time - if we use the time well.

The truth is... I've noticed I'm attracted to Happy people. A girl with a beautiful smile and sparkling eyes (which btw will shine through just fine ... even if she just cleaned a sewer..) who shows her happiness in life will usually do it.

I'm hoping those criteria are what I might call "lust free criteria"  - I want a girl that is attractive to me... while not having any unattractive features (the annoyances..) I'm not expecting any type of perfection (perfection = lack of individuality) or even what is typically defined as beauty.


It just so happens that happy, smiling, "bubbly" people are attractive because of what they stand for - an energy for living.

Likewise, skinny = healthy and care about themselves.

Likewise, well dressed, and "groomed" = care about themselves, how they look, how they present themselves.

Realistically, I don't think I ever turned down a girl based on her looks.... it was more about these other things - their smile... or their "grooming"

I do expect my date to do their hair, put on tasteful makeup, and flattering clothes / jewelry that show they're living on earth not in robot land. I always try to look my best for my date...shouldn't I expect the same?

Likewise... if you do decide to send me a picture before we go out (I send them my picture with the rest of my info and hope they get the hint.... most do... I never ask for one though) why don't you send me a flattering picture. Hire a professional (photographer, makeup artist, stylist.... ) to do it right.

NOT doing so, indicates that you don't consider these things important... while I do. I am neat and formal when I need to be. I appreciate attention to detail. I put in the effort to look good. Do you? These all can be indicative of a person's personality and values. This is what I try to focus on... not a subjective "is she hot."

Ok... rant over.. :-)

Reb BH - I think it's great that you find a girl most attractive when she's a happy person, and that shines through. I agree - a happy girl is much more likely to appear attractive. And I think it says a lot about you that that's what you focus on!

I should point out, though, that when you talk about "looking your best for a date" - Almost without exception, a girl is spending more time (probably a LOT more time) preparing than you are, even when she's not dressed to the 9s.

As far as pictures...I have some friends who ask for pictures. And I can understand it - you want to have an idea beforehand of whether or not the person is attractive to you. And I can't convince you otherwise. I will mention my reasons for NOT asking for a picture, and I'd ask that you consider them...

1) Some people just don't take good pictures. Period. They can be beautiful in every way, but they still just...don't look good in a picture.

2) Some people might not be drop-dead gorgeous, but all those factors you mentioned - her smile, her sparkling eyes, her personality - can easily combine to make her beautiful in real life, when you meet her, even if her picture just doesn't show it.

3) Not everyone has the money to drop on professional photographers.

4) (here's a counter-intuitive one) if a girl is very attractive, and I'm already really excited about that before the date, I may miss more important things.

To sum it up, I want to meet the whole person, and have her looks be in the proper context.

I should also point out that all the things you mentioned don't give you an idea of how she's going to look on an average day - in fact, exactly the opposite!

True beauty comes from within.  The outside is a shell we are just physically  attracted too.  It's what on the inside that counts.  The closer I am with my wife I understand more and more.  To me, my wife is the most beautiful person in the world.  Probably no one else feels that way about her. 

sci1977 wrote on 30 Dec 2009 16:07:


Boruch Hashem, I feel the same way about my wife.

One important point that I think may have been overlooked (correct me if I'm wrong): It's true that external beauty should not be the basis of a relationship and, if it is, there will be serious problems.  However, having said that, there are many flaws that a husband will be willing to overlook in his wife if he finds her physically attractive.  When a wife is being annoying, I suspect that many husbands think (or even say) "You're just lucky that you're so beautiful!"  So, in that sense (and, no doubt, in others), the woman's beauty helps promote Shalom Bayis.

BecomeHoly wrote on 30 Dec 2009 12:57:


That's very beautiful, and I think it's true: to the extent that a husband doesn't look improperly at other women, he will most likely continue to look at his wife as the woman he was initially attracted to.

Kedusha - I agree (says the unmarried guy who has no clue what he's talking about) - but that's a matter of him being personally attracted to his wife, not objectively being beautiful. No?

silentbattle wrote on 30 Dec 2009 22:49:


Right - that's why I wrote "if he finds her physically attractive."

OK, just clarifying.

In fact, I wonder if that's a pshat in the gemara that says that "he may come to hate her" - because without the physical attraction (and that whole aspect of marriage), everything else becomes a much bigger problem.

silentbattle wrote on 30 Dec 2009 23:05:


I think that's probably the Poshut Pshat.

silentbattle wrote on 30 Dec 2009 23:05:


This is an issue I've thought about a lot - true. But again, the emotional factor is beauty I think is the ikar - do you care about taking of yourself? Because you know how it affects for - and if you haven't looked in a mirror for months at a time - what does it say about how you feel about your husband? It's that bikush for chen, that she wants his favor via her feminity that's affects us the most.

In other words, before marriage, a girl is usually "at her best" - and a man needs to be comfortable if he's happy with her best. Hence, assur lekadesh ad sheyarena.

After marriage - her continual striving for "her best" in spite of the realities of life - again, at 6am you're just not going to look like for a 6pm date after four hours of prep - is a constant message " I care. I soo want to make you happy" - be it putting on a shaitel before he comes home etc. - that what carries a marriage afterwards, even more then where she is physically.