Putting terminology on the side, it appears all of you are basically in agreement. I do not believe any of you disagree with the following:

1. We accept all people as products of their experiences, genetics, and challenges. How the hypersexual stimulation of our generation manifests in each of the enormous number of guys who were not properly educated and prepared for this nisayon - which can be in extremely varied manners - is irrelevant regarding acceptance.

2. Nobody is promoting unsafe situations or unnecessary risks. We respect each individual with whatever drives he has in his mind. That being said, we guard our communities and specifically our children from harm. "We" includes those who have risky drives as well. It is their responsibility along with those who can't even fathom what others struggle with, to keep our young boys and girls (and of course teenagers and adults) safe.

Agreed?

Hashem Help Me wrote on 06 Dec 2022 11:58:

+10000

Hashem Help Me wrote on 06 Dec 2022 11:58:

100%.
As usual HHM is able to express what i wish i could. Thank you for putting to words what I've been trying to say the past few days!!!

​deleted. irrelevant.

jackthejew wrote on 05 Dec 2022 10:07:

Of course! That's why I'm in therapy. And that why I recommend the overwhelming majority of people with "alt" attraction/desires/feelings to........go to therapy!  I've been to 4 therapists and 1 physiatrist with a combined 91 years (!) of practice!! Never have I been told "you are not normal" "You have mental illness" "you need help asap". "every teen you pass is in danger" "we must "fix" this.  I have been told "you should be more vigilant then the average guy out there" "We should discuss this father because this is important" etc etc etc

I spoke with my therapist (frum, specialized in Addictions, Sex & Porn Addiction, trauma & recovery) yesterday and here is his view on the sugyah:
To define the sexual attractions mentionned above as Normal, Common, Natural, Acceptable etc. is very difficult from a theoretical point of view since they depend on numerous factors, therefore there are very few general rules that can be applied. Every case is different, has different causes, triggers, behaviors, consequences etc. And is very recommended to be discussed with a professional in order to define whether harmful or not and how to process for the person (acceptance etc.).
As for statistics, maybe they mention specific registered cases, but they uneasy to rely on since not everybody will go out and mention their struggles.

jackthejew wrote on 05 Dec 2022 10:16:

Of course it can! And that's on a person to person basis! You are not everyone. You cannot tell someone who has a "alt" desire/feeling/attraction that it is having a "serious impact on the quality of their life". A physiatrist and only a physiatrist can diagnose someone. And btw this may be the reason (i believe it is the reason) that the DSM-5 discontinued the various sexual attractions as mental illness, because they realized that in todays day and age most sexual attraction don't have a serious impact on quality of life.  And I want to add my main point of the whole discussion and why i started this thread in the first place.   The less we have to worry about a part of ourselves, the less that part has control over us.  Aka, the more we normalize a desire/attraction/feeling the less control it has over us and it begins to no longer  "have a serious impact on quality of life" 

Summary. 1+1=2, Normalizing in the non Jewish world = non-Jewish people no longer feel like their desires have "serious a impact on quality of life"  =no longer a mental illness!!

Human being -"Hay time to normalize something that is very common here in the Jewish world too! because 1+1 equals the same 2.  Normalizing in the Jewish world =Jewish people no longer feel like their desires "have a serious impact on quality of life"  ==not a mental illness!!  

And that is what I say when I say I believe the Jewish world is 20 years behind the non-Jewish world. Because the 1+1=2 in the non-Jewish world is about 20 years ahead of the same 1+1=2 of the Jewish world. And quite frankly, I'm going to be a little blunt here, I don't mean this in any way personally, its people who don't allow the normalization to take place, which causes the opposite equation.

1+1=2. Making something "not normal" = people feel like their desires "have a serious impact on quality of life"  = indeed. a mental illness. Just like the 1980s. New research of the brain and the phycology of the brain, has allowed us to understand that conversion therapy doesn't work. Normalization does.

Feel free to read the article below in the spoiler(for some reason spoilers don't work the moment idk why). It is comprehensive. The data is from 46 study's.  

www.gov.uk/government/publications/conversion-therapy-an-evidence-assessment-and-qualitative-study/conversion-therapy-an-evidence-assessment-and-qualitative-study[spoiler][/spoiler]

Big Big part of the whole discussion that we haven't focused on yet.  The Question of,
"But if we normalize all feelings and desires, then we will act out, because we will say- "actions that are a result of normal feelings, are normal too- [i]just like in the progressive world-where this has already played out, and they are trying to normalizing all kinds of behaviors, including some who would like to normalize even pedophiliac behaviors]. Therefore, we as Jews have to fight, to continue classifying "alt" attractions as "mental illness", in order to show that  "alt" desires/feelings are very very wrong"

My answer to that is short. -False. Simply not true.

In the Progressive non-Jewish world, since they don't have definitive morality, and instead have fluctuating morality based on whatever the generation considers "normal", Then when the generation believes a desire/feeling is normal, they then the thinking goes as follows, "if a feeling/desire is normal, then the actions done as a result of those feelings are normal too". 


This is not so in the Jewish world.
We in the Jewish world have definitive morality, which does not change from generation to generation. And therefore, we can accept and normalize all feelings and desires and never-the-less state unequivocally, that acting on our accepted and normal desires, is never ok.

jackthejew wrote on 05 Dec 2022 10:16:

"And the fact that 3 to 9% of the population experiences pedophilic feelings doesn't make it in the norm."   -No-one said its the norm. Its just common. And were not crazy and there's nothing "inherently wrong with us"

"Especially considering that that number is below the estimated percentage of male youth who are molested (around 10-15%), the trauma of which has been proven to often cause pedophilic tendencies in the victim"      - You are 100% correct. Getting molested is unfortunately all too common. Good point here. And anyone who got molested should understand this. Its not your fault, we believe you, we feel for you, we believe that there is no apology or comfort anyone can give you that will heal the wounds of the disgusting and vile acts perpotrated on you and to you. And yes please reach out because A) ITS NOT YOUR FUALT NO MATTER WHAT. and B ) unfortunately, as jack the Jew points out, your not alone. Sadly not alone at all. 

(I agree absolutely, pedophiliac tendencies are often a result of molestation.)

Human being wrote on 06 Dec 2022 18:02:

Is fluctuating normalicy any better? What is treatable, untreatable, affects quality of life, and so on also seems to change according to this. If you can do something about your desires, do it. Don't call it normal and accept to  struggle for the rest of your life. Because there have been many cases of people attracted to violent fetishes which are normalized and legal today who continued down REALLY bad paths because "there was nothing illegal" until they couldn't control their impulses anymore. Being able to hold your breath today isn't a garuntee you can for the rest of your life. It's probably better to take the plastic bag off the airway

Gevura Shebyesod wrote on 05 Dec 2022 11:50:

"I’m saying that you can’t say that “3% + 4% + 2% etc. = 20%” if those numbers include a lot of the same people."

You are correct.  And you may be right. It is possible its more like %10-15%. Never-the-less i believe it is still the correct number and ill explain why.
3 reasons,
1- I estimated very low. why? Because I only included real serious cases where someone has acknowledged having a specific desire.(my links may not be perfect, but almost all of them are not opinion. they are study's). Therefore I believe there are many others, who while its not a big part of their life, still have those desires on a lower level. (meaning, even if they don't "identify" as such, the desire is still there)  And therefore, each estimate should have a few more percentage points added to them. 
2-the number of gen Z adults (born from 1997-2003) who identify fully as "attracted to different desires" is %20.8  aka the more the feelings are excepted, the more people aren't ashamed about it. (this generation is also a lot less healthy so I'm going to assume that plays a huge huge role in "alt" desires
3-Im giving a rough (my own) estimate, so yes, these were the factors I put in, but my number can definitely be off. But point is, its common, regardless of the specific number.

Human being wrote on 06 Dec 2022 17:24:


In our "20 years more advanced, open, accepting society" With nearly 20% of our young adults now comfortable to say the truth: The normal desires they have are not "Straight"; we have the wonderful results:
42% of Gen-Z has been diagnosed with a mental health issue.
The teen suicide rate has risen 30% in the past 20 years.
The trans youth suicidal idiation rate has massively risen at the same time, and it's more in the liberal areas.
So are they ahead, or going backwards fast?

jackthejew wrote on 06 Dec 2022 19:57:

Backwards very very very fast!!! Because they don't believe in accepting feelings and then healing wherever those feelings may have originated from. They believe in focusing on accepting feelings and NOT FOCUSING HELPING PEOLPE TO HEAL!!!! They say its ok! Its natural, your good to go! Its very very sad. And yes as I said already, 7/8th of the guys (87.5%) of the guys I know with "alt" desires have had some sort of trauma/abuse/neglect in their childhoods. So when they say "not only are you normal, you also are perfectly fine acting how you are and nothing is wrong". It is terribly damaging. Because over 85% of these "LGTBQ" human beings who committing suicide, or on fentanyl (No Judgment to anyone on fentanyl or who has suicidal thoughts) have had serious cases of abuse/neglect/trauma! its terrible.

Unfortunately, their focus on LGTBQ behavior, to the neglect of the causes causing the behavior, is deadly, dumb, against science, and to me (because I'm religious) sick.

HB, I think you agree on many things but there are some things left in disagreement.

Is this true? You think that we can not change or curb our thoughts, feelings, attractions etc? It follows that the Torah does not instruct us to not have bad thoughts?

Additionally, you feel that thoughts or feelings of sexual attraction to minors is not intrinsically bad or unhealthy? I am NOT talking about Common or not common. What about thoughts of violence towards others? Towards babies? Sexual attraction to a neighbor's spouse? To other men? I say intrinsically, not strategically. Meaning maybe for a strategy of getting more healthy, better self acceptance, one should accept and think/pretend it is fine. Intrinsically?

You are obviously very well read, so maybe you are more informed on this - does CBT not help you stop having troubling thoughts?

Thanks!!

frank.lee wrote on 08 Dec 2022 12:26:

Thanks!!I would love to answer you post, there are like 5/6 questions that are intertwined. Can you edit your post into individual questions? thanks.

Btw you are very knowledgeable and smart yourself. Ive enjoyed getting to the truth with you and @jack the jew. 



​This forum right now is very hard to read, because every post is so long, and the conversation is hard to follow. Bh after "finishing" responding to all posts, i want to start another column that's more readable, with the same conversation so people can see all the arguments clearly. Maybe we can argue privately over email. Im doing that with @jackthejew too. I think its important to leave all the "correcting" "i really meant to say this or that" "definitions" off the thread, in order for people to actually know the real argument taking place. As well as sorting through what we are actually arguing about.