Ok, it may sound presumptive or rude to ask this. But there are a lot of women I think can be fairly characterized as immodest. I interact with them and want them to feel respected, but if I look at their eyes, I see their ... because they aren't covering themselves. This seems really unfair to me. I organize events and would like to ask them to cover themselves, but I live in a very liberal part of the United States and am worried me requesting (or worse, bringing things for them to cover up with) is going to create an uproar or violate halachic rules on avoiding public embarrassment.

How should I deal with this kind of situation? E.g., one in which I'm in public organizing an event and a (non-Jewish) woman who is dressed immodestly is present and I am obligated to be decent / nice to them. I have considered wearing something like a face veil (you sometimes see Chassidics wearing these). But I don't want to represent something that I am not (I am not a Chassid), and I'm worried it will make me into something of a public spectacle. Is there a more discreet way I can guard my eyes from seeing these kinds of things without wearing a face veil?

Also, what is the halacha on desire? E.g., what is `appropriate' or `inappropriate' as far as desire is concerned. One thing I've found amusing about becoming shomer habris is that, contrary to what I take to be popular opinion, I don't want to stop illegal emission for the sake of being a prude. Rather, I prefer to engage in illegal emission because I am a prude. I am too aroused if I don't force an emission, this can be a rather uncomfortable state to be in. Because I prefer to avoid arousal, I want an emission. That is a bit funny really. What are the laws on what desire can be present and how it can be engaged with? Is there anything I can do to get rid of the desire that is lawful? I am aware that food is one thing. However, with the economy in the U.S., it is difficult for me to buy a lot of food. Unfortunately (to me, though this is actually fortunate objectively) Hashem is essentially forcing me to become shomer habris as I appear to have a not-well understood pain in my testes after emission (am seeing urologists but they are experiencing difficulty in diagnosis; from my research, ceasing masturbation usually resolves this condition). So, I will need to live with the desires.

There is an additional problem in that there is a legal issue with emission, but there is also an ethical issue with the kinds of desires I've experienced. The kind of fantasies I've had were gross. Baruch Hashem I have managed to overcome them and can now experience a  illegal emission from much less explicit and unpleasant things; no nudity or weird paraphilias. Nevertheless, it would be ideal to stop illegal emission entirely. One concern (probably the yetzer hara) is that I want to ensure I am able to keep my desire appropriately directed towards things that are pure, beautiful and loving, not grotesque and perverse. I am not sure how to continue maintaining the proper disposition towards love while not engaging in any illegal emission.

Lastly, I have a few questions about whether there is a law on guarding one's ears versus guarding one's eyes. It may be wise for me to ask this over private message to avoid temptation for anyone struggling. Good Shabbos, I'll re-read after it ends.

* I mean ``illegal emission'' in the halachically prohibited sense; I am not violating any laws outside of halacha

Hi, 
Thank you for sharing your situation, I am not sure the level of difficulty you experience the desire to "act out" as we call it in SA, but I am a frum Jew who has finally found something that works. The program is big but a couple ideas that I learned is to be totally honest about your desires and your situation now and "surrender" them to Hashem. This is done with Daavening, saying Hashem I am totally powerless over this desire and I want to act out right now. That is one I have been using recently but it is flexible. Another permissible and vital one is to Daaven for the person you are tempted after. It is impossible to be tempted after a person you pray for as you are turning them from an object into a human. That doesn't give you a right to look. Looking has to be surrendered as well.
I don't have experience dealing with others in telling them to dress a certain way which worked, but on the invitation if you put a suggested dress code usually people will be respectful, just make sure to put something like, The dress code follows Jewish customs to cover... or the like, blame it on the religion and be honest usually works best.
All the best, I hope that you have the Siyata dishmaya in guarding enayim, Bris, and with any upcoming events!
Misgaber

Hi welcome! If I understood correctly it seems like you feel that the longer you go without an emission the more arousal you will feel. I and I'm sure many others can tell you THIS IS NOT TRUE! While it is this way in the beginning after some time it goes away. You may want to try the F2F Program.

Trying to reply but having difficulty focusing today, yes. I really like the idea of davening for the person that you are tempted over (making sure to not look at them and not harbor lustful thoughts) as well as yourself since it can get rid of the nasty aspect of lust and make it something I think is more pure and halachically appropriate. IMO the guidance to guard our vision is given to us by the light of the Torah and is not obvious if we didn't have the Torah so it requires adjustment to the natural disposition in my opinion

I think I'll write something like I politely request modest dress, I don't want to mention religion since I'd rather that people defame me than cause any hostility to Jews. I think they can just think I'm a political conservative (even though I'm not lol).

As for the kind of lustful thought patterns I think that's a fair point that it usually does go away if it is not fed, but I wonder if it might become more difficult for me to feel numb to the world. e.g., I think it will make me more sensitive to things in the world (even if I don't feel the desires or have intrusive lustful thoughts). I don't think that's a bad problem to have but just wanting to make sure I can handle it

Shavua Tov and wishing you a bracha

B"H it's getting a lot easier to avoid desire. I think what is different about this try is making sure I do not see with my eyes immodest women. I haven't followed this until this attempt. It seems really simple and not that abstract but this literal interpretation of that rule is making it a lot easier I think. I'm at the point that Rabbi Yaron Reuven mentions of needing to guard my sleep, because my mind is beginning to surface other images I've seen in the past. Brain fog is finally dissipating also. I think people are offended when they realize what I'm doing but I'm much more concerned about not having an illegal emission which Shulchan Aruch describes as the worst possible sin described in the Torah. Unfortunately or fortunately I'm going to take as many steps as I can to segregate myself from immodest environments as well to safeguard this. Urges are going down as long as I'm occupied with study (both secular and Torah study). Thanks for all the mensch here who have probably davened for me, I think it's making it a lot easier for me

I'm not really missing it, it's just as nice if not better to have some sweets or baked goods etc (and then no tired or guilt after really, actually maybe some tired but not in a missing sense)

Also B"H that I'm managing this during Parshas Noah given how it illustrates the consequences of immodesty and illegal emission

One thing I'm having to moderate is not allowing other people to induce or seduce me to feel anger in the secular world where people are very liberal with their displays of anger (and I think are often addicted to it). This isn't easy but may Hashem reward us all for trying

B"H this week went well enough. I failed once but that is pretty good for how addicted I was the week before. I managed to avoid binging after failing that one time. Hoping to stay pure next week consistently, managed to get a lot more Torah study done than usual.

The time I failed was because I was triggered by seeing browser history, also, I slept on my back. My failures / close calls are caused by in-between state between sleep and waking. I've managed to stay safe through bedtime Shema, wearing kippa to bed, and sleeping on my side.

hST2cKmqv3vpV wrote on 28 Oct 2022 02:15:

Catching oneself after a single fall, and not binging, is testimony to having headed a great many steps in the right direction. It shows a paradigm shift in the thinking process. 

From the way you wrote, it appears that the "in-between state between sleep and waking" incidents refer to masturbation. Such slips in semi-conscious states are caused by subconscious activity and should not be viewed as serious as a mid-day conscious masturbation.

In addition to the kipa, krias shma, and side sleeping, going to sleep with a biography of an erliche yid can be very beneficial and change the bedtime fantasizing script that many of us trained ourselves to have. Recently there have been many new books published about very inspirational individuals in interesting "out of the box format".

Continued hatzlacha. You are an inspiration.

Thank you and hatzlacha to you also

Yes, avoiding the binging seemed to me like the most important thing in the situation. I feel like the yetzer hara has that kind of binging appetite. To me that is what is inhumane about it. Some people seem to want to remove it entirely. I'm guessing that this is probably a good idea, but am not actually entirely sure what the conversation is around that. For me, I'm allowing the yetzer hara to binge on things like chocolate or other sweets instead. It was interesting to me to see, when I was binging on those sweets, that I had the exact same lack of control I normally would have towards the emission. Feel free to correct me if I'm doing something wrong by this. My view is that I'm trying to follow the law of Hashem. Of course one should strive to avoid the yetzer hara but from my perspective if I can appease it with something that is not illegal it is better.

I like the way you described the ``bedtime fantasizing script''. I hadn't thought about it before, but yes, I feel like many of us have been indoctrinated that such a thing should be what we do. My impression is that sleep is also a trial, just as is being awake. In the secular world sleep may be seen as a kind of respite, but I feel like it is truly another kind of travail. Right now, that is probably the biggest thing I need to overcome. I also am beginning to ponder the reality of ... that attempt to visit men in their sleep.

One thing that has disturbed me is realizing just how ubiquitous this problem really is and how so many young people of both sexes are being subordinated to this strange impure economy of the visual. There's a false narrative (to me rooted in progressive politics) that someone who engages in this kind of impurity is special and expressing themselves. If anything, what would be truly remarkable is someone especially from a secular background who has somehow managed to avoid all of this.

Thanks for the inspiration, do you have any book recommendations?

Erev Shabbos

Try The Battle of the Generation. See link below in my signature.

Try The Battle of the Generation. See link below in my signature.

















 

Thank you Shavua Tov



B"H Day 5(?) (14 days or so without a binge) not really keeping count, I can keep myself pure for the most part. Had intense urges in subconscious waking up stage. Also my mind is probably purging itself of these images now. Going to put this book on my phone and keep it open for when I wake up.  Yetzer hara seems to go after me when I'm barely awake and can't remember my own name, let alone all of this stuff. Probably want to put Modeh Ani on the ceiling above my bed and other such prayers. Thankfully my body is beginning to adjust, I don't feel arousal as frequently. I enjoy the new feeling of purity. I want to be pure for my future wife, if my mind wanders to thoughts of such thing I try to close them and also remember I want to stay pure for her



This may just be me, but I'm focused on keeping my living space cleaner and more pure also. I bought new cleaning supplies and am wanting to enjoy more higher or refined pleasurable things such as: A clean and beautiful place to live, peace and serenity, etc. My opinion is that what I consider to be tumah (perhaps not halachically so) e.g., a dirty or bad smelling place can lead to tumah in terms of relapse (and vice versa). That's not halacha but is just my experience. Keeping the space pure seems to help keep from tumah in my body



Much more focused on practical concerns such as tracking expenses and savings



Appear to be speaking in my sleep, voice slightly deeper



Sleeping on side prevents involuntary arousal while asleep, but may need to figure out how to make this more comfortable and easy to sleep for the long haul



Am wanting to see how I can have my mind occupied with Torah while asleep. Have had some limited success doing this. This kind of sleep unfortunately does not seem to last very long without me waking up at current.

Waking up triggered is a subconscious act and should not "derail" you. It is expected in the first stages of breaking out of this mess. Having something inspirational next to your bed - a picture of a tzaddik that you look up to, a Modeh Ani card, or negel vasser, etc can all help you break out of the "spell" you are under when you wake up. 

You write very inspiringly and intelligently. There is no doubt that the many guys reading your posts receive chizuk. Please continue posting.

Thank you
I'll do that
Sleep last night was really intense. Much more vivid and violent than usual. Also very ...ual.
B"H I didn't relapse in my dreams, but it felt like I was having ... and I dreamed about it. Surprisingly I didn't lose anything, again B"H
On a positive note I didn't have temptation when I woke up (probably because of how disturbing / grotesque my dreams were. I think I saw myself embodied as an animal I had to save that kept getting destroyed, and every time it happened I had to try to go back in time and try to stop it from happening
Would like to have dreams in more pleasant worlds / realms than these ones... lol

Day 6 or so (15 since binge). Dreams seemed to decrease in intensity. Slight exhaustion. Same issue which is sleep related stuff but seems to be getting more manageable B"H

Morning of day 7 (16 without a binge) Crazy strong urges last night, had vivid dreams but they were positive this time (like rewards from Hashem) and also good omens IMO. Didn't relapse B"H.

hST2cKmqv3vpV wrote on 01 Nov 2022 13:12:

Keep going!! Proud of you!