Battleworn, I am happy to see you posting, and especially happy on the "tone" of your posting. I think you finally get what it is I have been excited about. I am learning a lot of new things from Boruch and from this thread!




I'm just curious how you know this? The second to last sentence of his book says "To all those of you who recognize that you suffer from addiction, I strongly suggest joining one of these addiction support groups." And if you'll say that it seems from the book that Yerachmiel doesn't need the groups, I believe this is only because he had the RY to help him. Otherwise, Yair would agree that someone like Yerachmiel would DEFINITELY be a candidate for the groups! How could he NOT be? He was doing the worst things. Does one really have to be suicidal before they are candidates? And if you'll say that that's what Yair seems to imply in the book, I repeat my opinion; that's only because he had the RY to help him. Do you have any PROOF that Yair holds this way?

I just noticed this post of yours somewhere else:




Helping someone not to reach absolute rock bottom does not mean that the person they are helping is not a candidate for the groups. It's the other way around. The 12th step is to help someone who IS a candidate for the groups, either through counseling him (as the RY did) or by convincing him to the join the groups, IN ORDER THAT this person shouldn't have to hit the very rock bottom.

All through the book there's one and only one definition of an addict that never changes. As I said, if you read it it again (the part after Yerachmiel gets married) with an open mind you'll see that in his opinion Yerachmiel was not an addict and therefore not a candidate for the 12 steps.




That's a wonderful question. But I suggest that you ask Yair, not me.




I'm sorry if you thought that that's what I meant. Now I'll try to be very clear. The R' Y' tells his group that all through his months of recovery, WHILE HE WAS HELPING YERACHMIEL, HE COULDN'T FATHOM WERE ON EARTH HE WOULD EVER FIND AN ADDICT. Until he realized that there's an alternate way to do the 12th step without finding an addict.

You have had so far like 10 questions on the book. Can you make a list of them? If you don't want to call him about them, maybe I will...

guardureyes wrote on 26 Mar 2009 09:23:


In AA they say Keep it Simple.

I thought the issue here was very obvious, but no, you think that concerned_yid has his opinion, Rabbi Twersky has his opinion and I have another opinion, and I say, if Guard missed it totally then apparently it's not obvious at all.

So let us start with a simple statement of facts.

The question was "Is SA for everyone?"

concerned_yid who is an SA member for three years made impassioned pleas as a member of SA and at least twice actually referenced SA beliefs specifically. He mentioned the First Step and he mentioned the 11th tradition about attraction as opposed to promotion.

Clearly he would have everyone reading his email believe that he has correctly represented SA teachings.

The truth is sadly very very different.

And we don't need to take my word for it. This is easily verifiable by anyone. But before we come to any conclusions on concerned_yid's email and phone call to you, let us just stick to the facts.

Let us start with the concerned_yid version of the First Step.

He wrote in the clearest terms,

[quote="concerned_yid]The first step says "we admitted that we were powerless" and "that our live had become unmanageable" ... Honestly speaking, most people on your site, Boruch Hashem are not there yet. They still have a job, were not caught by their spouse or boss, did not accumulate so much debt that bankruptcy is the only option, and are nor not having sleepless nights because they are so miserable with themselves, or became suicidal."[/quote]

The SA brochure for the Newcomer has a very different First Step.

But let us first get a little background from the SA brochure for the Newcomer on what SA is and who it is for:

SA][b]Is SA Like Group Therapy?[/b]

SA is not a form of sex therapy or group therapy. SA meetings are conducted by SA members using our meeting guidelines. There are no professional leaders at an SA meeting. [b]SA is a program of recovery from lust and sexual addiction based on the principles of Alcoholics Anonymous[/b]. Whatever problems we bring to SA, we share a common solution — the Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions of recovery practiced in fellowship on the foundation of sexual sobriety.

[b]How Can I Become A Member?[/b]

[b]All who believe they may have a problem with lust are welcome to attend SA closed meetings[/b] and may consider themselves members if they say they have a desire to stop lusting and become sexually sober.[/quote]

So what is this problem that SA refers to?

The SA pamphlet continues:

[quote= wrote:


The problem is a loss of control over sex. That problem is overdoing it and being unable to stop.

And in case that is not already clear enough, it does not get any clearer than this explanation of how the First Step is understood in SA:

SA][b]How Can I Tell If I’m Addicted?[/b]

[b]You have to come to the realization for yourself. Recognizing our own powerlessness is what we call “working the First Step.” As the First Step states, “We admitted we were powerless over lust—that our lives had become unmanageable.” It takes time and often a lot of pain to admit we are defeated. Sooner or later, we say something like, “I give up!”[/b] or [b]“I need help!”[/b] or [b]“I can’t do this by myself any more!”[/b]
[b]
Each of these statements is an admission of powerlessness.[/b][/quote]

[b]And right there is the SA definition of powerless and unmanageable.[/b] And just to make sure the newcomer knows how powerless and unmanageable his life has already become the brochure continues with a test list of symptoms:

[quote= wrote:


That is the problem and the addiction. What does SA suggest as the solution?

This is what they write immediately following the above list of test symptoms:

SA][b]I Know I Cannot Stop on my Own. I’ve Tried Before And It Did Not Work. Are You Saying It Is Actually Possible?[/b]
Yes, it is possible. There are sober members of SA all over the world, both single and married. Together we can get sober and stay sober in SA, as we work the program one day at a time.

[b]What Do I Have To Do To Get Sober?[/b]
While there are no absolutes in the SA program, we can share with you what we know about getting sober. We go to meetings; we work the Steps; we use the literature (both SA and AA); we have sponsors to whom we talk on a regular basis. Many of us have come to trust in a Higher Power who keeps us sober.[/quote]

What next? Do we need to wait until we are suicidal? Does the solution only work for people who have hit rock bottom? Here is what they say next:

[quote= wrote:


So much for concerned_yid's claims. They are false. Every one of them.

And, before we come to any conclusions, let us establish the facts clearly:

Fact: concerned_yid has totally misrepresented SA's definition of addiction and SA's definition of the First Step.

Now to his claim about the 11th tradition of attraction and not promotion means that you should not post the 12 steps or link to SA because online information about SA would be promotion.

Well, here is SA's website.

And here is their online list of 12 steps, linked by the way prominently on the sidebar of their homepage.

But the claim is false for many other reasons.

The first is that it is a total distortion of the meaning of the Tradition. Alcoholics Anonymous has always given interviews to the media. They were successful after in 1939 the Chicago Plain Dealer ran a series of articles on them. The wording of the Tradition itself makes it clear that they are into promoting AA activities to the media. This is how the tradition begins:

SA]
Our [b]public relations policy[/b] is based on attraction rather than promotion; we need always maintain personal anonymity at the level of [b]press, radio, films, and TV[/b].[/quote]

So if there is a Tradition about publicity to the media what does attraction and not promotion mean?

The 11th Tradition as explained [url=http://www.aagrapevine.org/stepsTrads/checklist.php]here[/url] by AA publications means this,

[quote= wrote:


Needless to say, linking to the SA website and posting the 12 steps are very far from being in any breach of SA Tradition.

Even more to the point, SA Traditions are only binding on SA groups not on GUE.

Fact: concerned_yid has totally misrepresented SA's 11th Tradition.

These are the facts.

For now.

I will comment later on their significance.

Suffice it to say for now that concerned_yid's writings are a total fabrication and misrepresentation of SA and they should be removed from this site ASAP.

I will post more later.

Thank you Boruch for clarifying that. I am waiting to hear from Rabbi Tweski.

By the way, when I wrote:


I was talking to Battleworn about the Book by Yair Shochat. Sorry if this wasn't clear.

Our addiction tells us to latch on to anything which is easy and simpler than the 12 steps that is going to pull us out of hell.  Now we're using expert Rabbis out of context to excuse us from the one thing that is going to help us.  Oh! You're making the Y'H so happy.

Let me see if I understand all of you.  You're looking at porn, looking at women on the street, etc.
BUT G-D forbid you should go to a safe place where there might be a woman.  OMG that's OSSUR, right?
I mean you might actually learn from another human being, even if she is a woman that they have feelings too.  And how they feel when they're looked at, googled, at, whistled at and made into sex objects on screen and off screen.

There are reasons why hundreds of thousands of alcoholics have become sober, even Jewish ones, through the 12 steps, because they work, and to use Rabbi T. as an excuse means to me you're not interested in getting sober or into recovery... and that makes me very sad.

This post is not meant for anyone in particular.... just my thoughts in general.

Elya, you're 100% right for someone who is sincere. But the question at hand is "what constitutes sincerity?"
Because someone who is not serious can:
1) compromise the anonymity of other members
2) learn worse things from the stories he hears
3) use the groups as a spring board for meeting up with other "not serious" or vulnerable members of the opposite sex.

Now personally it seems to make sense what Boruch writes, based on the SA literature, that anyone who wants to stop lusting IS SERIOUS. Period.

But since Rabbi Twerski suggested starting with the phone calls and other tools on our site to weed out those who are NOT serious before suggesting the groups to them, I am waiting to hear from him... After all, what he says makes sense too. I don't know if Boruch or you disagree with Rabbi Twerski at all.

guardureyes wrote on 26 Mar 2009 22:47:


First I have another confession to make, yes I know this is a little grating to hear confessions the whole time, but welcome to life in the 'crazy house'. I have been really up tight about this, and I had to stop posting earlier just to make it in time for my SA meeting tonight. I knew that at least something would be good about the meeting because I had earned my 60 day chip --- today is day 66. But it was even better.

Andy, my original sponsor, a real type A, and hard-driven guy, asked that they make a reading from the personal stories of AA beginning page 417, 1st sentence, 1st paragraph:

AA]And acceptance is the answer to [i]all[/i] my problems today.[/quote]

And I realized, as I was hearing the reading about acceptance, as it went around the room, and as I read my paragraph, I discovered how absolutely furious I was about the way concerned_yid had tried to wrote:


The reason both you and Rabbi Twersky took him seriously was his earnestness and his familiarity with SA. Neither you nor Rabbi Twersky have any first-hand knowledge of SA and here was someone with 3 years of first hand experience. Obviously both of you would take him seriously.

What we now know beyond any doubt whatsoever, regardless of his motives which are for the Eibishter to judge and not me, that:

1) He is not a reliable source of information. His information on the First Step and 11th Tradition are so far off base that I am reminded of Rashi on Chumash, about the Avodo Zoros hakrovim, 

דברים פרק יג, פסוק ח: הקרובים אליך או הרחוקים - למה פרט קרובים ורחוקים אלא כך אמר הכתוב מטיבן של קרובים אתה למד טיבן
של רחוקים כשם שאין ממש בקרובים כך אין ממש ברחוקים

From what we know is incorrect, that is his claims on the First Step and 11th Tradition, you can discern the story with the rest, in other words, you know just how unreliable are his claims of knowing sincere people who did not hit rock bottom, disclosing anonymity.

2) He is very very far from being objective.

As such it is clear to me that we were fooled by his sincerity to preserve his anonymity into believing that he was overall a reliable and valuable source of information, and now at the very least it turns out that we cannot take anything he says at face value.

If it were my site and my question to Rabbi Twersky, inspired by someone who had represented himself as knowing exactly what he is talking about and it turned out that he was not reliable, and I realized that obviously at the very least, he had a big agenda and a lot at stake, and I had assurances from someone else who knew the program at first-hand, who was ready and able to demonstrate the validity of everything he is saying, I would not hesitate to remove the question from the site and dismiss the whole issue.

But it is not my site, it was not my question, I have said what I have to say, and I am going to "Let go and Let G-d"

guardureyes wrote on 26 Mar 2009 22:07:


That wasn't the problem at all, you were very clear. The problem was that I was so angry when I posted, earlier, that I quoted the wrong post from you.

I went back just now and fixed it up to make it more obvious to anyone reading the thread. If you look back at it, you'll understand a little more what I meant at the time.

Elya wrote on 26 Mar 2009 22:27:


The bottom line is that the guy who wrote the email caused all of this. He claimed that 3 years of experience had taught him that etc. etc. etc. and being someone who seemed to know what he was talking about everyone was quite justified in believing him. Of course he had his own agenda, and we have been there and done that...

I have done what I can (plus I am about to do a little more in my next post) and at this point I am going to invoke AA's infamous Rule 62 on myself:

[quote="Bill W. 12 Steps & 12 Traditions, page 149]
"Then he did something else that was to become an A.A. classic. It all went on a little card about golf-score size. The cover read: "Middleton Group #1. Rule #62." Once the card was unfolded, a single pungent sentence leaped to the eye:"Don't take yourself too .... seriously."[/quote]

battleworn wrote on 26 Mar 2009 13:54:


No problem at all battleworn. No need to ponder any of concerned_yid's claims or even argue over the meaning of yair shochet and what he "holds".

When you "Let Go and Let G-d" you can get big siyatta dishmaya. Look at the metzia I just found, it is the most absolute proof you can get on the meaning of the First Step.

I have already posted here from the SA manual for newcomers, but now I just discovered here our very issue discussed in beautiful clarity and detail by the originator of the 12 steps himself, in his essays entitled, 12 Steps and 12 Traditions, here discussing the First Step,

Bill W. 12 Steps and 12 Traditions p. 22][size=2][b]In A.A.'s pioneering time, none but the most desperate cases could swallow and digest this unpalatable truth. Even these wrote:


That should settle this argument once and for all.

So, it is time to move forward. Let the calling of the GUE Forums be to raise the rock-bottom so that it's within reach of not only all the addicts here but, as the originator of the 12 steps himself wrote, even "young people who were scarcely more than potential 'holics."

Guard,
The 12 Steps and 12 Traditions essays by Bill W. are so clear in resolving questions of meaning, let's go back to what concerned_yid wrote about the 11th Tradition:

[quote="concerned_yid]Do not mention SA or 12 steps. This is one of the SA traditions "we grow by attraction rather then promotion". [/quote]

and compare it with what is in the 12&12:

[quote="Bill W 12 Steps and 12 Traditions p. 181][size=2]Let's see how these two contrasting ideas— attraction and promotion— work out. A political party wishes to win an election, so it advertises the virtues of its leadership to draw votes. A worthy charity wants to raise money; forthwith, its letterhead shows the name of every distinguished person whose support can be obtained. Much of the political, economic, and religious life of the world is dependent upon publicized leadership. People who symbolize causes and ideas fill a deep human need. We of A.A. do not question that. But we do have to soberly face the fact that being in the public eye is hazardous, especially for us. By temperament, nearly every one of us had been an irrepressible promoter, and the prospect of a society composed almost entirely of promoters was frightening. Considering this explosive factor, we knew we had to exercise self-restraint. The way this restraint paid off was startling. It resulted in more favorable publicity of Alcoholics Anonymous than could possibly have been obtained through all the arts and abilities of A.A.'s best press agents. [b]Obviously, A.A. had to be publicized somehow, so we resorted to the idea that it would be far better to let our friends do this for us.

Precisely that has happened, to an unbelievable extent. Veteran newsmen, trained doubters that they are, have gone all out to carry A.A.'s message. To them, we are something more than the source of good stories. On almost every newsfront, the men and women of the press have attached themselves
to us as friends.

In the beginning, the press could not understand our refusal of all personal publicity. They were genuinely baffled by our insistence upon anonymity. Then they got the point. Here was something rare in the world— a society which said it wished to publicize its principles and its work, but not its individual members. The press was delighted with this attitude. Ever since, these friends have reported A.A.
with an enthusiasm which the most ardent members would find hard to match.[/b][/quote]

So in fact, reading the literature we can clarify that the 11th Tradition is that AA/SA [i]do not promote themselves[/i], they rely on friends like the media, and friends like GUE to promote them!!!

[b]So the 11th Tradition actually means that SA is relying on you, Guard, as a non-SA friend to publicize their good work.[/b]

Guard, this is so helpful for clarity that I am going to email you a copy of [url=http://www.rnnk.org/RNNK/swf/AM12X12.pdf]12&12[/url]

I have read this thread with interest and I would like to offer my balanced approach to the latest issue.  The latest issue that I am referring to is the validity of concerned_yid's points and whether his letter should be removed from the site.  Before I begin, I would like to state that I am a fan of the 12 steps.  I have been using the 12 steps before boruch came into my life.  I had spoken on the phone with R' Shochet about the 12 steps.  You can read about how the 12 steps had helped me in this post to shomer.  While I did not agree with every point, it gave me a framework for growth.  You can read my own thread where I mention how I used the 12 steps.  I acknowledge the fact that having never gone to the groups, my experience and understanding is different than those who have gone.  I also acknowledge that I am no where's near versed in the principles as boruch is.  I used the steps more as a springboard than an exact manual.

Baruch made the point that everyone on this site does fit into step 1.  I wholeheartedly agree with this. In fact, I really believe that it was that first step that gave me my boost and encouragement for growth.   The words "powerless" and "unmanageable" are somewhat subjective.  Each one of us (I imagine) fits into this somehow.  Obviously, there are degrees.  If we were not powerless, none of us would ever have done these aveiros.  So to say that many on this site do not relate to the first step is not true. And so I agree with boruch on this point.

However, I do think that we still need to take concerned_yid's experience into account.  Let us focus on the forest not the trees.  His point was not to explain the 12 steps.  And his point was not really about whether the 12 steps was for the people on this site.  His main point was that in his THREE year experience , he has seen may people fall further because of the groups and we should be careful who to send to the groups.  I do not think we can ignore that fact.  Maybe we should edit the one line where he says that most on this site do not fit into step 1.  Boruch, I appreciate the fact that you take this issue seriously. And I happen to agree with much of what you said.  And I think your criteria is very helpful.  But I also believe the words of concerned_yid are also helpful.  One does not negate the other.  His main point still remains that the groups are not for everyone.  He has been there 3 years not just 60 days.  He is stating a real observation.  Your point was to clarify who in fact they are for.  You agree with him.  I think your addition to that page will be very helpful to all sincere readers.  People should be aware of the potential dangers and potential greatness.  People need to be aware that the wrong group can be devastating.  People should be aware that there are mixed groups and separate ones.  That there is a difference between SA and SLAA.  People need to be aware of the different types of people.  That there is a difference between total rock bottom and not rock bottom.  That there is a difference between a person coming out of internal desire for growth as opposed to coercion or fear.  People should be aware that some have fallen when going for the wrong reasons.  And many have grown when going for the correct reason.  I hope the point is clear.    

Baruch, my dear friend, I am sure that if you continue to explain your wonderful and inspirational experiences, you will indeed attract (not promote) those who this system is appropriate for; the same way you attracted shomer.  Many on this site are yearning for freedom. They are yearning for a closeness with Hashem.  They are yearning to realize their own selves.  But they just cannot figure out how to do that. You can help them.  By you describing your experiences, I am sure there will be those who will read it and say, "Ah, this man describes exactly what I am looking for.  If it worked for him, I might as well give it a try".  Even if you changed only one person's life, all your efforts are worth it.    

May you continue being an inspiration for all.

Yaakov, thank you for saying exactly what I was thinking!

Boruch,

1) These long posts of yours are very informative and enlightening, and I have noted down by me much of what you have written for future reference. BUT I think you are missing the issue at hand. The issue at hand is what Yaakov wrote and what I posted in reply #66. No more and no less.

2) I have to disagree with you on one thing. Again and again you claim that concerned_yid  has self-serving interests and that he has a big agenda and a lot at stake, etc. etc. What if you would find out that is completely false? I am 99% sure that he is not worried about HIMSELF. Do you really think he is afraid that we're going to send so many people to SA that many insincere people will end up coming to the very group he goes to (out of thousands in the U.S) and that one of them will spill the beans about him? I find this very unlikely, and yet in the last 10 posts of yours you have been stating this as FACT, again and again. That is what I meant when I said your posts are too harsh. You keep taking him apart, limb by limb, when I believe in fact that he is very sincere. And to prove my point, if he wasn't sincere - how could SA have worked for him so well? (BTW. Rabbi Twerski is the one who sent him to the groups about 3 years ago...) Also, if he wasn't sincere, why did he try getting everyone to go to the groups himself? He used to post on our forum. He called himself "Kookoo" and you can read all his posts by clicking on this link. As a punishment for being so harsh on him, I am sentencing you to read ALL his posts (There are two pages of his comments, you can access them both by pressing on the numbers at the top of the page). Then come back to me and tell me what you think about him. And I quote one of his posts here:

It appears to me they you are still trying to control and enjoy it. You think that you can do it your way. Until you will not driven to the point of despair by your own actions and thinking, as long as you think that there is another way, there is no chance for recovery. It is like a cancer patient taking vitamins instead of chemo.

The twelve steps is a change of attitude, a new way of life. Living only with Hashem 24/7. Accepting our limitations, knowing our vulnerabilities, admitting our wrongs, and living a life that demands rigorous honesty, is all part of this new way of life.

I don't overcome it, Hashem does it for me. If you want to know more about how it works go to aa.org and look for a an open meeting in your area. Go there and listen in, and see how you can relate to them. When you will be ready accept that you have incurable mental disease and admit that you have no other option but to work the twelve steps of recovery, I will be glad to introduce you to a meeting in your area.

3) Boruch, I LOVED your post reply #70 where you write: Let the calling of the GUE Forums be to raise the rock-bottom so that it's within reach of not only all the addicts here but, as the originator of the 12 steps himself wrote, even "young people who were scarcely more than potential 'holics." . I agree that should indeed be our MOTTO!! Thank you!

Ykv_schwartz wrote on 27 Mar 2009 08:23:


I think that it is very clear that concerned_yid has a lot of concern over the anonymity issue and was very vague about who fell and under what circumstances.

I think that it was also very clear that concerned_yid was very clear that he only wanted the SA information removed so that there would not be a big influx to frum groups, which concerned him. So SLAA and SAA are not his issue, even though they should be ours and we should definitely steer people to SA, concerned_yid notwithstanding.

From my experience, with SA it is totally inconceivable that anyone who is serious in any way would drop out and fall in the way that concerned_yid describes. concerned_yid himself does not even suggest that this would or could happen. The real reason that people do drop out and fall is something that he did not address specifically, but which I have been told by someone who attends frum groups. Almost all the Frum people in SA come into SA under duress. That is the reason why there is a significant turnover, exactly as concerned_yid has described.

And that is all totally irrelevant to the question of people coming in from this forum. Even in Guard's more evangelical moments he was never coercing anyone. If you want to know why concerned_yid would raise an  ungrounded objection, we know why, he is very concerned about the anonymity issue and we know of two other ungrounded objections that he raised, that of the First Step and that of the 11th Tradition.

What he describes of people falling out entirely of groups is very well accounted for by the demographics of the Frum groups and any suggestion that this is any way a concern for serious people is in my opinion nothing short of ridiculous.

Ykv_schwartz wrote on 27 Mar 2009 08:23:


No, I disagree with him entirely. I am convinced that his observations are irrelevant to our forum. He is talking about an entirely different type of "case".

Ykv_schwartz wrote on 27 Mar 2009 08:23:


I do believe that, once and for all, we really have to take all the mystery and mythology out of this, because concerned_yid has unwittingly created such confusion for so long that we are not looking at this the way we ought to, with basic common sense and sechel hayoshor.

We need to recognize what we already know. In order not to compromise someone's anonymity you do not need to be rock-bottom. In order not to leave the fellowship and go off the deep-end you do not need to be rock-bottom. You just need to be half a mentsch. The people that concerned_yid described were not even that.

And this talk of rock-bottom and not rock-bottom is totally irrelevant as a pre-requisite for joining the groups. It is only relevant for how you take the First Step and many SA members do not take the First Step until they have been with the fellowship for a month and often more. So, it's just another red-herring raised by someone who is very concerned about a particular issue and who we know has not been reliable in his description of basic aspects of the program.

Ykv_schwartz wrote on 27 Mar 2009 08:23:


Guard rephrased my original post in a way that made no sense at all, but I had more important things to worry about than correct him on it. But now you mention it, it is worth stating what should, in my opinion, be entirely obvious.

Anyone being coerced to go to SA is not going there because we sent them!!! There is nothing for them to be aware of if they are anyway being forced to go.  We have nothing at all to say to people being forced. And anyone not being forced does not need to know what would happen to them if he would be forced. The relevance of people being forced, is that those are the people that concerned_yid is talking about, which of course has no relevance to us.

The bottom line is that concerned_yid could have been in the groups for as long as 120 years, or even 240 years and if he would tells us that decent people would out others because they had not gone rock-bottom, we would know that he is mistaken. When he tells us that he has seen many people fall, we know exactly what type of people he is talking about. He is talking about the people who make up the Frum groups, people there against their will. And the ones he is describing are the lowest of the low. They do not even have basic decency.

There is very little of any value that concerned_yid has offered us, despite all of his years in the groups, other than his initial justifiable concern that we should not be sending people when they are not yet ready.

The problem is that he has created a lot of confusion about who is not ready.

We should not be creating a mystery here. He has claimed that you have to be rock-bottom, this is totally untrue, all that is needed is some decency and seriousness. He has claimed that you have to be suicidal, this is nonsense. In short concerned_yid has added a lot of heat to these forums and a lot less light. And in so doing, even if it was with the best of intentions, he has nevrtheless potentially turned away people who could have gained.

So if he has not given us reliable guidance, we have to be sensible ourselves. We have to know that if someone is serious enough about becoming part of a program that requires turning with deep sincerity to Hakodosh Boruch Hu and requires a spiritual house-cleaning, and if they are ready to commit to protecting the anonymity of everyone in the fellowship, then there is no reason to suspect any adverse outcome, I agree with Elya totally on this, and I do not believe that we would even be sweating this at all if concerned_yid's ideas had not had so much time to settle into the group consciousness on this forum for so long. To me there is absolutely no excuse whatsoever to try and push someone who is genuinely ready by sensible standards into a phone group.

Ykv_schwartz wrote on 27 Mar 2009 08:23:


Yaakov, may you have tremendous hatzlocho in your path, and I will share with you some words from the AA book:

[quote="Alcoholics Anonymous Chapter 7 Working with Others p.95] If he thinks he can do the job in some other way, or prefers some other spiritual approach, encourage him to follow his own conscience. We have no monopoly on God; we merely have an approach that worked with us. But point out that we alcoholics have much in common and that you would like, in any case, to be friendly. Let it go at that.[/quote]

So you don't even have to worry that I will be tempted again to try and evangelize you. That said, it is more than a question of friendship, regardless of the external structure of our paths, I am convinced that there is much more similarity in content and tochen in our paths than there is difference, and one way or another we can gain a lot of chizuk and inspiration from each other.