guardureyes wrote on 25 Mar 2009 07:28:
BTW Boruch, did you ever read
this page? I thought you'd find it interesting.
Guard, I have read that page at length, and unlike Rabbi Twersky, I know the groups at first-hand and I understand the natures of the concerns expressed, and I can tell you that the page should be removed entirely from the site ASAP, as quickly as you removed that picture of the woman, if not more so, because this email is even more dangerous. Here is why.
For those who don't have the patience, the bottom line is that this email does address potential concerns and real issues. However it is also an unwitting, but self-serving distortion that has lead many who are uncomfortable with the groups to honestly believe that the groups are a bedieved.
As much as there is some truth in the email there is plenty of false paranoia, exaggeration and distortion.
An honest, simple, common sense approach is a much better way than all the false fears and paranoia:
[quote="guardureyes]Dear Rabbi Twerski,
If I can please ask some important advice in regard to our website wwww.guardureyes.com. I was contacted yesterday by someone who has nearly 3 years of sobriety after attending the SA groups in New York. He's a chassidishe guy, and he had fallen into a terrible sexual addiction with no limits at all, until he finally surrendered, and today he's almost 3 years sober B"H and helps others in the groups as well. He pointed out to me that I am too quick on my website and in my advice to people, to send them to the groups [/quote]
I did this too and as I wrote above that is not how AA and SA recommend working with others. People need to find themselves, they need to discover for themselves to what degree they are addicted and ideally they should come into a 12-step group because they feel they have to and because they need to, not to try it out.
[quote="guardureyes] and that this can sometimes cause more damage than good if the person is not fully ready for it. (By "being ready for it", he explains that the person's life has become unmanageable and he'd rather die than continue, but he can't stop). The reason it can cause damage he claims, is firstly, because the Jewish community is small, and someone who is not sincere can expose others in the group and bring real Gehenom on others who are truly seeking the help that they need (and he knows stories to this effect)[/quote]
This is a very sad and unfortunate truth. I have heard from a member of an almost exclusively Frum 12 step groups where there have been real anonymity issues. I did not know this at the time, but my fears over the anonymity issue were the main reason that I decided from the outset to go as far as maintainable over the long term (1 hour drive) from home, to a group that has not seen a Frum Yid in years. It turned out that I was very fortunate, because the group I attend is made up of mostly religious, middle-aged and older men, it has members who have 15 years and more of sobriety, many of their members have been AA members with many years of sobriety from alcohol, my own sponsor has been with AA for 25 years, which is since he was 25. So I get to see the real deal and not a diluted and watered down version.
But let us be honest here. The purpose of the groups is to serve those who seek sobriety. If someone is serious, if he understands that the program is not group therapy, that it is not a support group, that it is
1) A religious program -- it is about sincerely, deeply and very honestly asking Hakodosh Boruch Hu for help.
2) A program that requires a personal housecleaning -- doing the program means looking ruthlessly and honestly at every aspect of their character and being ready to have all the flaws removed.
3) A fellowship of people to whom he must have loyalty, at the very least as far as absolutely protecting their anonymity.
If an addict is serious about all of that and is interested in committing himself to the program (rather than just testing the waters), then no-one is entitled to keep that addict out until he is caught, arrested or suicidal. So the description that "he would sooner die" is way over the top.
Yes, there is a potential for problems and certainly one should not directly and actively promote the groups, but if an addict is seriously ready for the elements of the program as above, then he should not be pushed away to a phone group because of concerns of the anonymity of current members.
Anyone who is more concerned of their own anonymity than the recovery of an addict who seriously seeks sobriety does not understand the 12th step. The solution is to be selective, to screen, and to impress the seriousness of the program and the seriousness of anonymity on would-be newcomers.
But, let us be totally honest, the real threat to anonymity does not come from Guard's recommendations, the real threat is from an entirely unrelated problem that significantly threatens anonymity within many Frum groups. Many of the members of Frum groups would, initially at least, rather have died than gone to the groups. The only reason that they went to the groups was that they were dragged, kicking and screaming by those who caught them, their wives, Rabbonim and/or askonim. When people don't want to be there, they can be a significant risk factor, until they come on board, get with the program or leave. So concerned_yid, anonymity is a concern, but you have identified the wrong cause.
guardureyes] Secondly, he claims that if they are not fully ready, they will only learn worse things, end up leaving the groups and falling even harder (and he knows stories like this too).[/quote]
You find what you are looking for. People who are serious about recovery are looking for recovery not excuses to become worse. The key is to sort out the addict who is serious and ready to commit himself entirely to the program and not someone looking for an excuse to say, well I tried that too and it didn't work.
[quote= wrote:
Therefore, he suggests I leave the links to SA only on the "links page" on our site, and only if someone is really desperate will they make an effort to find out what to do and how to join the meetings, and they will search for the links or contact us about it. He doesn't think I should suggest it for everyone, and it shouldn't be offered on a silver plater. He thinks I may want to hint to people in the beginning, that if they try everything and still can't break free, then we can help them find further help...
What we can do here on the site that is very much in line with AA's "Working with Others" is:
1) Help people discover whether they are able to stop on their own
2) Inform people that there is a problem and that there is a solution. That solution is a program that as above:
a) Is a religious program -- it is about sincerely, deeply and very honestly asking Hakodosh Boruch Hu for help, within the framework of your own Yiddishkeit.
b) Is a program that requires a personal housecleaning -- doing the program means looking ruthlessly and honestly at every aspect of character and being ready to have all the flaws removed.
And they need to understand that they must be ready to absolutely guarantee that they will do nothing whatsoever to compromise the anonymity of anyone in the program. [quote="guardureyes] Therefore, I wanted to ask the Rav's advice on this, since it is a serious issue. He claims it's a very big achrayus to send someone who is not ready to the groups, and that it can cause untold destruction and suffering to that person, or to the others in the group.[/quote]
The secret is, as above, as simple as weeding out those who are not serious.
[quote="guardureyes] I spoke with this guy already for over an hour and a half on the phone, and he seems to be very sincere and have a lot of good experience. If the Rav wants, I can ask him perhaps to even call and discuss this with the Rav. Besides for speaking on the phone, he also sent me an e-mail with these concerns. Here is his letter below:
concerned_yid]
It is important (vital would be a better term) to understand, that many, if not most, people on your website are not true addicts yet. They may have addictive behaviors and it will surely progress to the the point that their lives will become totally unmanageable that they will rather die then live such a life.[/quote][/quote]
This is an excessive definition of addiction that is nothing more than the personal opinion of a very serious and sincere individual who is justifiably concerned with the wrong people going to the program. [b]But, as sincere as this email is, it is however entirely off-base as a source for description of addiction.[/b]
The AA definition of the hopeless addict is someone who realizes that he probably will not be able to stop without non-Divine means. It is very safe to say that well over 50% of those who post on these forums fall very comfortably within this definition. And by the way, hopeless addiction doesn't mean those who cannot quit without an 'S' and 'A' group. Hopeless addiction includes all of those who are convinced that they probably could not have stopped or could not stop without Rav Tzvi Meir, Musar or any other religious or Divine means. [b]So the email author has it totally wrong, we are almost certainly 100% on addict percentage on this forum. [/b]
Of course not every addict should go to a 12 step group. For a start they need to seriously want to be sober and as above they need to be serious about doing what they can to make the groups work for them.
[quote= wrote:
However, at the present they realize that they have a problem and want help.
That is a very good start. Sounds to me exactly like the AA description of an addict.
[quote="concerned_yid]No one becomes an addict overnight! [/quote]
There is a famous joke about two elderly and learned baalei mussar who were sitting in the beis hamussar, each in his own corner, crying "ich bin a gornischt", "ich bin a gornischt" and in walks a newcomer and says to himself, unbelievable, such choshuve yidden and they think that they are gornischt, what should I say? At this he bursts into tears and starts crying, "ich bin a gornischt".[b]
Immediately the two baalei mussar get up outraged, "Just who do you think you are that you say you are a gornischt!"[/b]
So, the members of this site may not have done the years of recovery time that the email author has, but I can guarantee the email author that
no-one comes to this site overnight. I did 36 years before I came here, and I don't believe for a minute that anyone comes here for the fun of it.
So we need to strike a balance. We need to weed out those who are not serious, who are fundamentally dishonest, who are really only looking for excuses and discover those who are serious even if they have not suffered for years and have not yet looked death in the eyes.
We may be very well-advised to wait for a week or so, after a newcomers first post, circumstances permitting, to get a better sense of who and what they are before giving anything more than initial generic information but we have no right at all to create rules of how much seniority or severity is required to say, "ich bin a gornischt".
concerned_yid]The help and chizuk received from your site, the phone meetings, and the forum may be exactly what they need to stop. The fact that that they are not alone and there is a loving and caring community that they belong to, may be just what they are looking for.[/quote]
And it may not be. The only criterion should be seriousness.
[quote= wrote:
Sending someone like this to SA could do more harm then good; I say this from my own experience.
Don't send anyone. Give information to those who we know are serious.
concerned_yid]Being is SA for nearly three years, I have seen so many people come in and leave, and I can say almost all of them did not come by themselves (rather, they were told by others to try the groups). [/quote]
[b]Yes, you have seen many people come and leave. They were [i]told[/i] by those who caught them who gave them an ultimatum such as, the wife who said, if you don't go you are going to have to give me a get, the employer who said, if you don't go, we are going to have to fire you, the Rov and askonim who said, if you don't go you will have to step down from being Rosh Hakohol, and the Rov and askonim who said, if you don't go we will tell your wife/your parents.[/b]
Come on concerned_yid!!! That is not at all the same as a recommendation made by one serious ex-addict to another serious aspiring ex-addict...
[quote= wrote:
Upon leaving, it only got worse, far worse then you can ever imagine.
You better believe it, blackmail doesn't always work well. People who are coerced into going will not always do well. People who are serious will never look for excuses. [quote="concerned_yid]The first step says "we admitted that we were powerless" and "that our live had become unmanageable" this means one has to admit it not be told "well, you have a problem, try this this may work". It also means that a person must realize and cry out: "my life is unmanageable and it can no longer go on like this anymore".[/quote]
And no-one says that anybody has to wait until they are ready to work the steps to attend. They just need to be seriously committed to getting what they can from the program beginning with the meetings and a sponsor.
So let's not erect artificial blocks in the way of the struggling addict. Well intentioned or not, this is in direct violation of everything that the program is about -- helping the struggling addict,
without your own personal self-serving pre-conditions.
concerned_yid]Honestly speaking, most people on your site, Boruch Hashem are not there yet. They still have a job, were not caught by their spouse or boss, did not accumulate so much debt that bankruptcy is the only option, and are nor not having sleepless nights because they are so miserable with themselves, or became suicidal. Sending some like this to SA will endanger them and the welfare of the others who already are in SA.[/quote]
This is very well meaning, but as Alcoholics Anonymous puts it, this is a perfect example of self-will run riot. [b]concerned_yid, I care about your concerns, I identify with your points but what you have written in the heat of the moment is a distortion of AA and SA. Ask your sponsor.[/b]
[quote= wrote:
Who can take the achraius for the risk of those dealing with such a devastating addiction, being exposed to the public by some insincere individual.
No-one. That's why we need people who are serious and sincere.
And concerned_yid I can identify for you myself with absolute 100% certainty many people on this forum, just by reading their posts, many people who are serious and sincere, many like myself, not suicidal, not facing bankruptcy, not having been caught who would pose 0% threat to your anonymity, unlike the "cases" being "thrown" into your group daily by the various disgruntled spouses, bosses and askonim. concerned_yid] What about the welfare of their family, job, community status, shiduchim, etc.[/quote]
[b]And that is why we should be responsible and serious. But we must not be paranoid. That is self-serving and in violation of the whole purpose of the program.[/b] I sincerely suggest that you show this email to your sponsor and do a very searching, serious and deep 4th Step Inventory for all those who were similar to myself, who were not at the end of the road, who could have gained, but who, unlike myself, have been discouraged by the over-reaching tone of your email.
[quote= wrote:
Also, if a person is not ready for the groups and comes to them anyway, he will only learn new things and go out and try them.
If they are serious they will not. Guaranteed.
If they do learn new things they were not serious to begin with and would have found worse things anyway. That, as you know, is what addicts do, along with making excuses, such as, "It was the groups that made me do it". No concerned_yid, this is not true at all.
[quote="concerned_yid]Anyone who really need SA, because the forum, chizuk, and phone meeting is not enough, will find it on your site, or you may tell him/her with my consent to contact me. If they are ready, I will tell them that it's not just them, they are not alone. I was there and B"H recovered, and that SA is my only option if I want live a happy life, joyous and free.[/quote]
concerned_yid, I know you mean well and I know that, like me, you care, so why not be a little more open-hearted to yidden who are suffering? As a chassidishe yid, you more than anyone, should understand that when a yid wants, no matter what his background, no matter what his situation, when a yid wants, no-one should put barriers between him and the Eibishter.
[quote="concerned_yid]Do not mention SA or 12 steps. This is one of the SA traditions "we grow by attraction rather then promotion". Please let me know.[/quote]
SA has a website and they do list the 12 steps together with a little introductory information. Are you more SA than SA themselves? But I will be chosem bedovor tov and repeat, [quote="concerned_yid]SA is my only option if I want live a happy life, joyous and free.[/quote]
[b]concerned_yid, I know you mean well and I know that, like me, you care, so why not be a little more open-hearted to yidden who are suffering? As a chassidishe yid, you more than anyone, should understand that when a yid wants, no matter what his background, no matter what his situation, when a yid wants, no-one should put barriers between him and the Eibishter.[/b]
