aaron4 wrote on 24 Mar 2009 15:51:


We all need mentshlechkeit and R' Tzvi Meir and anyone else may make you into more of a mentsch but there is a very big danger that threatens all of us ex-addicts and everybody on this forum and we cannot afford to be complacent.

HoRav Isser Zalman Meltzer Zt"l went to a schmuess on sholom bayis that Rav Aryeh Levin Zt"l gave for poshutte Yidden. Rav Aryeh Levin Zt"l went over to HoRav Isser Zalman Zt"l afterwards and said, "Rebbe, chas vesholom that you should think I was giving the shiur for a Godol like yourself, I was giving it for poshutte yidden". HoRav Isser Zalman Zt"l said, "No, Rav Aryeh, you are wrong, my Rebbitzen writes my seforim for me, and sometimes I lose patience with her, I too need to hear schmuessen for poshutte yidden."

I have a very close friend who told me the following maaseh that he heard directly from the baal hamaaseh.

HoRav Moshe Feinstein Zt"l had a talmid who married into the family of a very choshuve Odom Godol who regularly gave schmuessen in English to the most poshutte Yidden. This talmid of Horav Moshe Zt"l who was marrying into the family of the choshuve Odom Godol was also a talmid of of HoRav Chaim Shmuelevitz Zt"l and had for a number of years heard HoRav Chaim's schmuessen. Marrying into the family of this Odom Godol, he decided to go once and listen to one of his English schmuessen for poshutte Yidden. He was initially very disappointed coming from the schmuessen of HoRav Chaim Shmuelevitz and told HoRav Moshe Feinstein Zt"l that the style was too basic and not for him. Horav Moshe Zt"l told him that he is making a major mistake. "Zei nischt kein ibber chochom", don't be a wise-guy, you need basic mussar as much as the most poshutte yidden.

The biggest to'os of our dor is that we don't understand what our Gedolim understood so well.

We make it very complicated. This one says he is going to Rav Tzvi Meir. That one says he is learning mussar. The other one says he is not such an addict and besides, he has recovered. Yes, he says, there may be poshutte yidden who need it, but I am already a mentsch.

Rabbosai, teire bridderen, we are lying to ourselves. We are ganovim, we are gonev daas atzmeinu and we try to be goneiv daato shel Mokom.

Our Gedolim knew that no matter how big you are you always need chizzuk on the very yesodos. Mi lonu Godol than HoRav Schach Zt"l who when he was in his late 90s would write and speak the most poshutte reid. I remember how I and many of my chaveirim at the time just did not get it. HoRav Schach Zt"l is telling us devorim shekol tinok shel beis rabbo knows???

And it was I and my chaveirim who were less than a tinok shel beis rabbo.

Are we greater than HoRav Isser Zalman Meltzer Zt"l, HoRav Moshe Feinstein Zt"l or HoRav Schach Zt"l?

Absolutely not.

Let us be absolutely honest with ourselves and stop all the lying and excuses.

We are addicts and ex-addicts who are trying to be ibber chachomim, we are trying to take short-cuts on our most basic chiyuvim.

If Gedolei Olam like HoRav Isser Zalman Meltzer Zt"l, HoRav Moshe Feinstein Zt"l and HoRav Schach Zt"l believed that it is imperative to be mechazek the very basics, we should be able to bring ourselves to recognize the same thing.

Let us face the absolute truth fair and square.

The Gedolim never sank to the depths that we did. They were way beyond any madreigo that we will ever be able to understand and yet they did not feel too wise, too holy, too advanced for devorim peshutim. If we do it is not because we are better than they, it is because the Gedolim were being honest and we are not.

Boruch,

I agree with every word you said.  Addicts and ex-addicts can never make the mistake of thinking they’re “cured” and are now beyond the basics.  Walking on the street quickly reminds you otherwise and brings you back to “working the steps” every day.  However for some of us (myself included), those steps are not “The 12 Steps”.  Rather they’re a combination of thoughts and actions (or inactions) tailored to the situation, many of which have been described in chizuk e-mails and on the various sections of GUE.  At a later time I’ll try to detail some of the practical steps that work for me since you like to hear details (I do too).  Since this has been working now for almost 8 months, I’d like to keep working these steps.  However if they fail (C”V) I will go to a 12 step meeting.  So don’t mistake my “12 steps are not for everyone” assertion as a dismissal of the need for basic chizuk of yesodos or schmuessen for poshutte yidden.  In fact, I’m still working on the “basics”.  I haven’t even gone through them once, let alone moved onto deeper learning.

Just last week I heard the story you recounted about R’ Issser Zalman Meltzer hearing the schmuess on sholom bayis.  According to the version I heard, R’ Aryeh Levin gave the schmuess primarily for a particular b’aal habayis who had sholom bayis issues.  The b’aal habayis came over to R’ Aryeh Levin after the schmuess and said “I hope they get the message Rabbi, well said”!  Meanwhile, the one who “got the message” was R’ Isser Zalman!

Honestly, I WISH I was holding there. You know Battleworn, you should start a website called "TzadikGamur.com". But guardureyes.com is for people struggling with a viscious cycle of addiction to lust. How does "Tzadik Gamur" even come into the picture at that point? We are miles away from that. We were acting like sub-humans. We need to become HUMAN again, and then we can think about being a YID. And after that, we can begin to explore how to become a Tzadik Gamur.

I do believe that we on this site have the potential to reach that. Especially since the strength and knowledge that one gains by breaking free of the addiction can be used to continue to rocket upwards to the highest hights. And I bet that's why YOU, Battleworn, are truly a Tzadik Gamur. But hey, one thing at a time :D

Ahron, don't make us wait "too" long :-)

It's funny how this works.  Because the void left by leaving lust behind must be filled and will not be denied, an addict determined to recover will almost by definition find his way to the derech that Battleworn has found.  It can be no other way.  So in fact, GUE gets credit not only for helping to make us human but also for the Tzadikkim that will undoubtedly emerge!  Mitzvah goreres mitzvah and the ultimate s'char, when all is added up, is immeasurable.
 

Ok.  Here are some of the steps that work for me.

When online, I consider my motivation for every site I visit.  If it’s a news site, I again consider why I want to read certain articles.  If it’s because the site or article discusses inappropriate topics (fashion or “news items” relating to immoral behavior), or even if it might discuss them and the Y”H wants me to find out for sure, then I don’t click.  In general, I limit the sites I visit to a small list and question anytime I feel the need to visit a site that is not on the list.

When in the street I have a number of different methods depending on the situation, but 3 of the most common thoughts that I’ve been working on making “second nature” are:

1) Remember that what you see is the outermost layer only.  Just a bit deeper is a bunch of gory blood and bones that you’d run from in horror.

2) Try to link the pleasurable sensation of inappropriate thoughts and fantasies to the devastating emotional pain I experienced when I revealed my addiction to my wife.  Since I must tell her if I fall and she has reminded my nicely many times that she understands me but would be very hurt if I had something to report, there is an immediate link between the fall and the painful consequence, even more immediate than the inevitable depressing feelings that used to follow a fall.  Although it’s still a 2 step process (pleasure followed by memory of pain), I’d like to get to the point where the only sensation is the memory of pain.

3) An oldie but goody…just get through today.  I can do it just for today.

You hit it on the nail, Ahron. And that's what I wrote:




But, I think I'll leave the TzadikGamur.com site to Battleworn. Even though it could be considered a "child-site" of guardureyes.com - for the reason you just wrote, I can only handle one website at a time  :D

Wonderful tips from Ahron. It would make a great Chizuk e-mail one day. Keep posting new ideas as you think of them!

aaron4 wrote on 24 Mar 2009 18:30:


OK, so here is what I am thinking, that may bring us all into agreement. If we all agree that we are not beyond the basics, then we are all ready to learn from each others' basics.

And in fact, sharing our basics with each other is certainly well within the tachlis of step 12, helping others gain sobriety.

So that said, there is certainly a difference between the addict who is still actively being nichshal and the addict who is not. If you are not currently being nichshal the 12 step groups are neither an emergency nor necessity.

As for the basic mussar for aspiring poshutte yidden like myself, that we could all gain from the 12 steps, I cannot tell you what mussar you would be able to gain from them. All I can do is share with you, and anyone on this site who would be curious, the mussar that I am learning from the 12 steps.

I am more than willing to do so in a series of posts, in the right place on the forum, that goes through the steps, one by one, in an as easy as possible and pleasant format, without lecturing and moralizing. My goal would be to both try and present them the way I understand them as basic and simple Rotzon Hashem and also to describe in a very basic and simple way how I am trying to implement them practically.

If anyone wants to read them, that is fine. If not that is also fine. At least I will be thinking of everyone else, and if in the end only I read it, there will certainly be a lot that I could learn from my own writing.

I heard a tape of Rav Avigdor Miller Zt'l in which he laughingly quoted the Satmar Rov as saying that Rabbonim who write seforim would do very well if they learned from their own seforim.

So, I will write for myself, and if anyone is interested in joining my journey through the steps they are welcome to come on board.

Sign me up, Boruch!

Boruch, I am looking forward to seeing it. You can put it for now in the "What Works For Me" Board.

If it's good, and I'm sure it will be if it's from you, I will put it up on our site bl"n, on the "12-Step section".

Funny we just discussed this today, I just happened upon a nice article in aish.com by Rabbi Twerski on addiction. And at the bottom it says:

About the author:
Rabbi Abraham J. Twerski

The founder and medical director of Gateway Rehabilitation Center in Aliquippa, Pennsylvania, Dr. Twerski is one of the country''s leading experts on alcohol and drug rehabilitation. He is the author of numerous books, including "The Sun Will Shine Again." .

And it's a nice article too. Rabbi Twerski discusses there - like Boruch was saying today, how addictions make us act lower than animals. And I quote:

The ultimate distinction between man and animals is not that man is more intelligent, but that animals are creatures that have no choice over their behavior. They must do whatever their bodies demand. They cannot choose what they should do. Man has the ability of self-control, to choose one's behavior, even in defiance of physical urges.

If a person loses one's ability to choose and is dominated by urges one cannot control, one is indeed an addict. Losing the ability to choose is losing the uniqueness of being a human being, and robs one of the dignity of being human. We pride ourselves on liberty and view slavery as evil because it dehumanizes a person. And that is exactly what happens when we relinquish our ability to choose.

Addicts may indeed have psychological problems, but these cannot be effectively addressed as long as the addiction is active. Control of the addiction is rarely achieved solely by psychotherapy. Participation in a support group comprised of people who have successfully overcome their addiction, such as the 12-step groups, is vital. Psychotherapy is a valuable adjunct.

guardureyes wrote on 24 Mar 2009 23:31:


Guard,
I just noticed two posts on this thread that I had not seen at all, one of them being the one that included your comment above. You misunderstood my comment totally, not having ever been to a group yourself.

The 'S' & 'A' groups such as SA and SLAA, and indeed all 'A' groups, such as AA, NA, OA have closed meetings that are only open to addicts sharing the addiction of the group. As such, assuming that Rabbi Twersky himself is not an addict, which is a reasonable assumption, he has never actually attended a real meeting. What these 'A' groups do for professionals is have open meetings with speakers describing what the program is. That is nothing like actually attending a meeting.

Here is what I can tell you as an addict who has attended SA meetings and has both heard from others and read about SLAA meetings.

1) Very few women, if any at all, attend SA meetings. This is because SA defines addiction as addiction to lust whereas SLAA defines addiction to relationships and behaviors. Women tend naturally to view everything within the spectrum of relationships and so as a rule they all go to SLAA where the focus is on the relationships. Additionally the men in SA are usually traditional and female immorality has more of a stigma attached to it than male immorality which makes women feel uncomfortable in SA.

2) SLAA is very liberal, in that it sees homosexual and extra-marital relationships as consistent with sobriety, for that matter, sobriety within SLAA is whatever you decide it to be. By nature this is more attractive to liberal and non-religious people.

3) SA is very conservative, compared with SLAA. Marriage is defined as being between one man and one woman, sobriety is no extra-marital sex including no masturbation (they call that sex with self), progressive victory over lust means overcoming lustful activity such as viewing images and addiction is to lust not relationships or behaviors. The nature of SA is such that it tends to attract conservative, traditional and religious men.

For the above reasons it is self-evident that frum Yidden would and should want to overwhelmingly choose SA over SLAA.

This is advice that has amazingly been glaringly omitted from this site and many pixels have been devoted to potential problems that it is claimed could occur at group meetings that would not occur at SA meetings due to the unlikelihood of female attendance and the very traditional nature of the groups.

Rabbi Twersky may not know this because:

1) As above, he is not an addict and is therefore by the anonymity definition not allowed to attend any regular meetings. Non-addicted professionals can only attend open meetings which are not meetings at all but just speeches about meetings.

2) SLAA has a very high profile among psychologists because of the psychological element of the focus on addiction to relationships and because as a rule psychologists are very liberal. For this reason the profession is far more aware of SLAA than of SA.

3) Since Rabbi Twersky's practice is not in a major charedi population center he has less awareness than practitioners in major charedi population centers. Just for example my therapist told me in no uncertain terms to keep well away from SLAA. His unspoken advice was shomer nafsho yirchak meihem.

So, everyone has their areas of expertise. Rabbi Twersky has tremendous experience in treating addiction, but he is not an addict, has never attended a real 'S' and 'A' meeting, and for whatever reason, that is not his area of expertise and he is certainly not the right address for advice on which 'S' and 'A' group to pick.

Ok, I misunderstood you. I thought you meant he doesn't know a lot about the 12 steps. And on that issue, I am certain he knows them intimately. As far as which groups to attend for a sex addict, he may not know all the differences between SA and SLAA. Maybe I should point it out to him.

BTW Boruch, did you ever read this page? I thought you'd find it interesting.

I'm sorry, but again you missed the point. I was just mentioning the chabura system to give you an idea how I'm not just talking about hearing droshos. That's why I said "FOR EXAMPLE ONCE SOME ONE IS READY FOR THE NEXT STEP..."

The bottom line is this:





Do you know what the lowest of the low means???

Or maybe you're doing this on purpose?