I am new to GYE. I can identify with fightingyid. I've had that burning desire now for years, many years. Before and after marriage - before and after becoming frum. It often - too often - materializes into fantasies. It can be during the day or when I go to bed at night. However, I NEVER look at porn even though I'm on the Internet all day for work - and I don't m**.

Nevertheless, the fantasies are my porn - they are my addiction. I've come to realize that the fact that I don't look at porn or m** does not mean I don't have an addiction. I usually cannot control these thoughts - and they can occur multiple times during the day. Why look at porn when I have an active and graphic imagination?? It's true that my life has not been outwardly damaged by this addiction - but I know my internal damage - and that is severe.

First, I've wanted to get this off my chest. I guess this is a beginning. Next, I've been trying to figure out what clean days would be for someone like me? Porn and m** are not my issues. To achieve a day without any sexual thoughts is probably superhuman. I guess I could just evaluate my level of fantasies when going to sleep at night for starters. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Hi. Welcome to our community. I'm sure a lot of people on this forum would be very jealous of you that you are in control and don't struggle with anything but thoughts!

Please read through this page, top to bottom. I'm sure you'll find many great tips.

May Hashem be with you!

wow,
i dunno man,
if those are your thoughts,
and you're staying away from the p and the m,
then good for you!
maybe accept the thoughts you have as natural and normal
and then let go of them.
ask HKB"H for help.
don't fight them, don't dwell on them,
if it works and/or makes any sense to you,
try not to think about these thoughts too much.
that doesn't mean don't think them,
maybe you're not ready for that yet,
but not to think about thinking about them.
again, if that makes any sense to you.

and...,
WELCOME!!

I understand your reactions - that my situation seems to be "under control" by addiction standards. However, what really is the difference between graphic thoughts and actually viewing porn? So, there is a picture on a piece of paper or on a computer screen - or the scene is running in the mind - is there a practical difference? From another standpoint, if the porn is the "bad" - then through GYE or other programs, the "bad" which is external can hopefully be removed. If it's in my head - then what? Also, since I have not always been frum, some of the images are based upon actual memory, which adds to their potency.

BTW, I have gotten great chizuk from the mailings on this site, and relate very much to (and am greatly impressed) by the struggles people are wrestling with.

Even some of us who are frum have memories...

I'm far from perfect, but something that works for me is shaking my head and focusing on something else - not just trying to force the unwanted thoughts out (that's like not trying to think of a pink elephant).

What happens when you do that?

I think also, like Sturggle pointed out, that sometimes when we view something as horrible, we can obsess about them - and all that focus on them can actually give them more substance. By accepting them as natural (albeit unwanted), we can let them just slide away.

Welcome yishuv daas. Im happy to hear that you dont struggle with the problems most of us have. im even happier that even so your trying to get better. Kol Hakavod. I think drop the 90 days. Its not meant for you. ( personal opinion ) You just gotta work on keeping your thoughts in check. And with that i think sturggle has a good point. try not to dwell on it. Try and keep your mind occupied with kosher stuff. But stay away from the " oh i cant think that and i wish it would go out of my head etc etc". this seems to usually be detrimental. Anyways Hatzlacha.

Did you find any good ideas in the page I linked in my original reply above?

Thank you for reminding/prodding me to look at that link you provided. There were many useful ideas and techniques there. Ideas for how to positively react and deal with the thoughts and practical techniques for managing them. I like the idea of "welcoming them" rather than fighting the losing battle of actively trying to reject them.

I saw an interesting Maharsha yesterday that I think is also very useful on this topic. On daf 10b of Makkos, there is the famous statement: B'derech sh'adam rotze lelech, molichim osso - the way that a person wants to go, he will be lead. It is usually understood that Hashem will lead the person in the way that that the person wants to go - for better or for worse. The Maharsha points out that "molichim" is plural and literally means "they" will lead him. Who are "they"? Also, it bothered me that Hashem would lead the person in possibly a bad direction. Why would Hashem do that? The Maharsha suggests that the "they" are actually malachim (angels). For every thought, word spoken and action taken, a person creates a malach. For good thoughts, etc. a good malach is created. For bad thoughts, etc. a bad malach is created. Therefore, the person, by creating these malachim (angels) is actually causing himself to be directed.

The GYE Handbook and Attitudes talk about the neuron pathways that our behavior creates. These pathways may be the malachim that our behavior creates. The GYE community, through joining and working together, is certainly assisting everyone to create numerous good malachim to counter the bad malachim that we have created in the past. Which is something that most could not do on their own.

Look, I don't want to make small of your nisyonos, firstly because it's just not a cool thing to do, and secondly "Al tadun es chavercha ad shetagiah li'mkomo"(don't judge your fellow until you've been in his shoes), and nobody really knows what's going on by someone else.
But I will tell you one thing: I hope to H-shem in heaven that you spend most of your day just praising H-shem for how amazing he was to you. You have no idea what it means to suffer from some of the things - that for some of us are a regular part of life.
For your nesayon, the main thing by far is tefillah. Not just asking a million times. That too. Rather, making each time you ask - like your asking to live another day. Like you want it so much, that your willing to give anything for it.
I was a big daydreamer myself. I actually had an IMPOSSIBLE time controlling my thoughts. The truth is, most of the difficulties went away when I got married. So I can really only give you advice from when I was a bochur.
It is in a way one of the most difficult things to control. Because you don't have to go anywhere or make any preparations to slip up. It's always with you, right in your head. At home, at work, in shul, in the yard, in the laundromat, in the coatroom, on the bima, off the bima, in the restroom, while your eating breakfast lunch or supper, at a wedding, in the shower..... You get my drift. It never leaves you, and you are always vulnerable. Furthermore, you can't always be on guard, because if you are then you already fell in, because your thinking about not thinking about it.

So what I'll tell you is this: That thoughts pop into your head IS NOT YOUR FAULT AT ALL AND YOUR NOT EXPECTED TO BE THOUGHT FREE!!! THAT’S REDICULOUS!! IF YOUR HUMAN THEN YOU HAVE THOUGHTS!!
OK, now that I got that out, I heard from the pele yoetz that anybody who desires that a bad thought should never enter his mind, “Eino ela taavoh” (Is nothing but desire itself). Why? Either because he wants to be on such a high level that he doesn’t have to deal with these things, or because he knows he will have to remove it, and that is unenjoyable, and can be very frustrating.
The practical advice I can offer you (if you feel you are being pulled into the desire to continue the thought at the moment, and find it difficult to pull your mind away from it), is to make times during the day, say between 2pm – 4pm, and during that time everyday – you be strong, and don’t allow yourself any leeway to slip. No intentionally daydreaming about these things, and if they pop in, then  GENTLY let it out of your head. And gradually move the hours up with your success, until you got the whole day in there.

Sounds simple, IS simple, actually works. Good luck man,


KG

I greatly appreciate all that you've said. The honesty, straightforwardness, and caring shown here is refreshing - and I greatly appreciate it.  I recognize that the magnitude of my struggle is different than others here. However, the strong (incessant?) drive for taavah - which is the common thread - is something I feel I need outside assistance with and GYE is the place to be for that. Yes, I will try to strengthen my davening and appreciation for all that Hashem has giving me over the years.