Really? I didn't know that. Can you share some info on that?

Is it true that people like that became that way bec of an overindulgence in regular taavos nashim? Or it's just that they're born sick...

Some and some. Nature vs. nurture.

Mr. Jew wrote on 09 Dec 2009 21:22:


Agreed.

I suppose it's an addiction like an other - again,in Guard's words - is it worse then Eshes Ish?

I think the nekudah is someone is going to act out in a way that is non-consensual, which unfortunately is much easier r"l in the realm of pedophile. We wouldn't tolerate it if an adult was the victim either. But for anyone who is hurting, directly another person, no "just" acting w/another person - for them, it's rehab and shots and only then therapy + understanding.
Listen, the Gemara in Bava Basra says an unmarried man should not be a cheder Rebbe for this reason. Unfortunately, this has existed before. And I suppose there is hope for such a person as well, if they are willing to realize where they are, realize they are insane (not more then the rest of us, but their insanity is more dangerous to others) and get the help they need. Which again, must not be virtual.

kanesher wrote on 10 Dec 2009 02:36:


I thought that was because he would have to interact with their mothers.

Thank you for your Chizuk, Reb Guard, Tomim, Kanesher, Mr Jew.
I hope the oilam doesn't mind if we veer off of the pedophila thread- Boruch Hashem i wasnt not given that Nisayon.
I consider myself to be self aware, and even take pride in that- but this idea of voyeurism- stemming from feelings of lack of intimacy, possibly stemming from childhood- is something that I really need to process and think about- i definitely haven't thought along these lines. For right now- I'm not talking about internet- although that is definitely where this Nisayon could get much worse- I have had dips-but I have a strong filter on my computer- and usually keep myself away from unlimited alone time on others computers.
But i'm talking in real life- looking into windows- hoping to get a glance of something, worse yet when things get worse getting an idea in my head of potential peeping spot- and parking my car in that spot. Climbing roofs, trees,  peeping though key holes- when I have an attractive guests.. setting up mirrors so that i have a possibility of seeing into somewhere- again I don't want to go into details and cause others out there Hirhurim. Thoughts developing about how to get access to places by planting hidden videos.
I haven't worked through the handbook methodically- which i will get on it.
The problem is I can go for months with out acting out- and then it will hit me hard- a new idea that I NEED to implement.
But almost daily- I have to keep myself from looking out of my window- trying to catch a glance at neighbors- even if it's only a glance.Finding myself keeping track of neighbors schedules...
How do uproot this from my being? If anyone would know this awful part of me...
I'm concerned to fixate on this with weekly phone calls- for fear of exacerbating something that only hits me ever so often- on the level of potentially acting out. How do I track this on the chart? What does clean mean(assuming that the mzl is under control?)

thank you eye.nonemous as well!

Kedusha wrote on 10 Dec 2009 03:39:

Your thinking of another gemara.
The one in BB, rashi says is bec of "mishcav zachar".

In your case, I would suggest making your own set of rules for yourself that would be your "bottom-line" behavior or "red-lines" ... and I would use the 90-Day journey to chart your staying clean from those behaviors. I also suggest that you consider therapy.

Check out this thread of another guy who seemed to have exactly your issues.

A quote from his thread:

I'd like to share one final thing that I saw today that impacted me (and I am trying to dwell on it more and really have it sink in.)

PORTLAND, Maine – A Maine man caught peering up at a girl from below an outhouse toilet seat four years ago stands accused of crawling into another pit toilet on White Mountain National Forest property in New Hampshire. A federal affidavit indicates a 49-year-old man confessed to repeating his previous act on Memorial Day.
Federal agents sought the man out after a 9-year-old boy saw him climbing out of a toilet at the Hastings Campground. Two witnesses saw him walk away from the outhouse.
Forest Service special agent William Fors wrote that the man initially said he climbed into the waste-filled pit to retrieve a T-shirt. Four years ago, he said he was retrieving his wedding ring. Fors wrote that the man eventually confessed climbing into outhouse pits on more than two occasions.

I thought to myself, "Thus far does a person go for taavah, eh?"  Isn't that all of us? Are we not willing to jump into a pit of excrement for a fleeting look at something that we will not attain, and that we know that even if we did attain it, it would not satisfy us? Truly this is an apt metaphor, I think. Maybe someone else here will get something out of it as well.

Wow! That mashal hits hard! :'(

that really hurt me.  :-[ 'cus it fits so well .  :'(

It sounds like your in the same boat as the rest of us here, except that the lack of control manifests itself in a different way. Unfortunately, there's no installable filter that will work for your situation.
Of course the best thing would be to get advice from someone who had your specific problem, and how he worked through it. (Some of the posters on the link R' Guard gave you might have answers). I guess that was the purpose of this thread. But until you find him, take the basics from what you find here. I'm not a professional, but I can't imagine these methods wouldn't help for you as well.

i totally relate to you MN .
i am a watcher and listener . i have been working on it  and it has calmed down . i'd be happy to correspond w/ you privately . not b/c i have solved it but i can relate to you better that way . also i've always found  i can help everyone but myself , so maybe it'll work for you too on me.
LV   

Ministaros Nakeini-
just checking up after last night
u were/are ok?