I think everyone would agree that it definitely looks better when one's bein adam lichaveiro is up to par, and that such a person is much more enjoyable tobe around, EVEN if you notice in him that his concern for what we're created for is at level 0.1 at best. Unlike a sour faced masmid who thinks your a shaigitz because you don't know how to farlomdeve like he can, who probably makes you nauseous. But the fact is, that these two people are (at least on paper), one and the same. They both do what makes them feel good, without thinking about, or considering what H-shem has to say. However, each one was born with different WAYS of expressing his own personal weakness. One just happens to be outright revolting, and the other... well intellectually incorrect, (which doesn't really bother the western "live and let live" mentality too much).
A bein adam lichaveiro which has nothing to do with H-shem, is based on the persons feelings. And like everything based on feelings, will go out the window as soon as the feeling is gone.
Unlike a bein adam lichaveiro which is based on the ratzon H-shem, which is not taluy in anything waverable, and is in a sense - infinitely REAL. Its like an extension of the good with which H-shem himself acts.
As far as a bein adam lamakom without bein adam lichaveiro, I personally believe such a phenominon doesn't exist. Bec if you only care about H-shem in terms of yourself, it by definition means you only care about yourself, and are using H-shem as a way to feed that selfishness. Which takes the "makom" out and replaces it with " his taavah".
To sum it all up, neither one can be real without the other, and therefore neither one can be MORE important than the other.

I voted bein adam limakom, bec if it is worked on it has more of a chance of making one realize the general truth which includes both. Whereas bein adam lichaveiro just feels good with no philosophy and is less likely to bring one closer to shmiras torah u'mitzvos.

Rage ATM wrote on 10 Dec 2009 18:26:

Can you explain what you meant there... i'm a little confused.

Rage ATM wrote on 10 Dec 2009 18:26:


Sounds like he lost it before that.

it's grammatically correct, but semantically it's nonsense...
but rage, are you trying to say that this is nonsense?

ohhh now i get it.
someone who only keeps ben adam lachavairo at first glance seems fine, but soon you'll realize that it's all based on nothing, and it can topple over without the foundation of ben adam lamakom?
like what kollel guy said?

not guilty
don't read him, well not for fun.
i'm in college...

Rage has a good point. The Chassidic sefarim talk about how our bein adam lechavero needs to be BECAUSE of our bein adam lamakom, like that story where the Rebbe gave the poor man 100 rubels, and then called him back and gave him another 100. The first 100, he explained, had been given because of his own personal feelings of pain for the man. This was an incomplete mitzva, so now he gave him another 100 because it was Hashem's will and nothing else! In other words, like Rage said, the true & "complete" bein adam lachaveiro needs to be BECAUSE it is Hashem's will. So much so, that Avraham told Hashem to WAIT while he ran to greet the 3 travelers...

So which is greater? It seems that Bein Adam Lachaveiro is, but ONLY when it is done BECAUSE it is Hashem's will.

(And not like the polite Germans who would use the humble expression "is it not so?" after explaining directions to someone - as in "you go left over there, is it not so?", but then later when the same Jew was in the camps, the Germans were chopping off peices of flesh and asking the Jews, "it hurts, is it not so?")

Absolutely - To Rage, Habib, and Guard. In fact, as R' Kelemen points out, it's harder to do bein adam l'chaveiro l'sheim shamayim. We have our own reasons for doing it, it makes sense to do it...it's a "dark" mitzva, the kind of mitzva that doesn't automatically make us think that we're doing a mitzva (unlike, say, shaking a lulov, which most people who aren't religious don't do just because they enjoy it).

So in a way, when a person can do mitzvos bein adam l'chaveiro completely leshma, that shows that he's reached the highest level.

Rage, what you said is incredibly deep, and I think i tried to say something like that previously. It's connected to some stuff I've been learning. Very often, people try to talk about what mitzva is "more important" so that everyone should do that. But we of all people should know that everyone needs to work on specific things, everyone has different areas that THEY need to work on to reach their shleimus (completion, perfection), even if those things aren't as essential for other people, aren't as much of a priority.

We need to be ourselves, figure out what WE need to do. Rock on!