i see that a lot of people say the daven a lot to recieve assistance in their struggle.
my question is as follows?
i'm not denying the fact that t'filoh is important. i understand to praise hashem ..speak of
his wonders, and to thank him for all that we have.
but lets be honest. when we ask for something.....do you think it really has an impact on
the outcome?
i ask this in all sincerty. i'm looking for a true solid logical answer.
we find that eliezar davend that he find yitzchok a wife.. about 2 seconds later rivka appeared. clearly, his davening had an effect.
but us, true hashem gives us what we need and most people are healthy, but think of the times we really poured our hearts in t'filoh...do you think i really made a diffrence.
i'm asking everyone to be honest. hopefully with a true and good answer we all will have a better apprecitation for davening.
i'm asking again. that unless you have a good logical and clear answer, do not respond
thank you everyone

I hear what your saying about the 12 step program. but thats just it,
it helps you feel relaxed, that hashem will take care of you.
true hashem will take care of you...but is it because of your t'filoh?
people feel better when they know they could daven to hashem..
but somone who is really looking to get an answer or even to know that
his/her t'filoh is being considered, that may not be enough.
thank you for your response

I happen to be a BIG time fan of Rage, so its not surprising that I think his answer is GREAT.

Still, I'd like to add something that I learned from a shiur by R' BenTzion Twersky (of Milwaukee... not the psychologist Twersky) that I was let to on the GYE forum... (its in the shiurim section)

There is something above thought, speech and action. There is Ratzon, or desire. It comes before even thought.


But the deeper sources like Maharal and Sfas Emes say that Ratzon is where its at... it is what makes us human, and where we really exercise bechira.

We are what we want. Like Rashi says in last week's sidra, Avrohom said to the bnai chais... im yesh as nafshichem... and Rashi says nafshichem means r'tzon'chem... your will is your nefesh.

So the question is, how does one change a nefesh, a ratzon? After all, we are what we wish, so how can we get ourselves to wish something different?

As the Chasidic saying goes, one can't jump higher than one's head, since the head comes along for the ride!

The answer is tefila.

Prayer is an exercise in ratzon. it is avoda shebilev. How tefila does this I don't know, but apparently meditating that I wish it were this way... makes the ratzon change.

But I agree with Rage that the 12 step secret seems to be distraction. I just think that they were smart enough to use a distraction that ultimately gets the person's desires to change...

kutan

Mark,
Sounds like you are wondering why asking Hashem for something should make a difference. After all, if He wishes it for us, so why is the asking needed. And if He doesn't, what will our asking help?

Is THAT the question?

Kutan

I WILL ANSWER YOU BUT AS YOU ASKED FOR AN HONEST ANSWER PLEASE BE OPENMINDED WITH MY ANSWER

HERE GOES

DOES TEFILLA HELP?

QUICK ANSWER .YES.

HEY BARDS ,YOU DIN'T ANSWER THE QUESTION

CHEVRA HOLD ON..

IF ALL WE NEEDED TO DO WAS "ONLY" DAVEN THAN IT WOULD NOT BE CALLED "AVODAH SHEBILEV"  WHERE IS THE AVODAH THE TOIL .ALL WE DO IS TEXT HASHEM OR MUMBLE A TEFILLA AND WALLA!!! BOOM ! SHIDDUCH !BOOM!CHILD! BBOM! POT OF GOLD ETC ETC ETC

TEFILLA IS AN AVODAH IT IS WORK WHEN WE DAVEN WE NEED TO TOTALLY SUBJACATE (OR SURRENDER) ALL OUR KOCHOS TO HASHEM.

THERE ARE MANY LEVELS OF TEFILLA

THERE ARE ZEMANIM THAT ARE CONSIDERED ESS RATZON

THERE ARE REASONS THAT ONLY HASHEM KNOWS WHY TEFILLOS GO UN-ANSWERED(SEEMINGLY)

BOTTOM LINE IS IF WE WERE TO REALLY DAVEN 'AS IF OUR LIFE DEPENDED ON IT' WE WOULD SEE MAJOR YESHUOS


ONE LAST THING THERE IS A OR HACHAIM HAKADOSH IN PARSHAS KI SAVO REGARDING TEFILLA AND OUR STRUGGLE!!

Hi. Good question. I am the admin of this forum. Welcome to our community. Here's an answer to your question that I once learned from a very wise man. It's a little pithy, but read it twice or three times and I hope you'll get it 

G-dliness and goodness always shine. Hashem is all good - all the time - and He wants to give us all the good in the world - always. The problem is twofold. (1) we don't always have the vessel for it. You can't fill a cup that's already full, can you?. (2) More times than not, we don't know what is really good for us.

So here's the deal. When it comes to spiritual matters, Hashem always answers every true and sincere prayer for spiritual growth (i.e. related to getting "out of self" and closer to G-d/G-dliness). "True prayer" though means we really really feel we need it. At that point, we have a true vessel for it - and the vessel is empty. Once that happens, G-d's light just shines in, as it was always shining in the first place. There is no need for G-d to even answer the prayer. Once we clear the blockage, His light just flows in.

When it comes to physical things however, Hashem will only answer a prayer if he knows it is good for us. And what we think is good for us is not necessarily good for us at all. So why pray at all for physical things? The point of praying for "stuff" is not to get it, but rather to feel close to Hashem and acknowledge that He gives us everything and that we are completely dependent on Him. Once we feel that way, often circumstances "change" and sometimes what was previously "bad" for us, is now "good for us". In other words, it could be that the whole reason we had the lack in the first place was only so that we get closer and more dependent on G-d. Once we pray and achieve that goal, there is no longer any reason for G-d to withhold it from us. But again - not always. Often, no matter how much we pray for something and think that it is good for us, it may not be at all. And if it isn't, Hashem won't give it to us. Thank G-d for that!  :D

Hope this sheds some light...

Hi Mark,

I dont know if someone gave you this answer already to that great question but here goes. Hashem is like our father. HE wants to discipline us to show us how to walk in HIS ways. So if you ask your father for something, he's probably not goign to just give it to you because what lesson would you be teaching your son. The son will ask for whatever he wants and the father will automatically get it for him. Wouldnt really accomplish much. But if the father makes his son do chores and follow in his ways and only give his son what he deems worthy then the son will only ask for things that he really wants and (thinks he) needs. So too with our almight father. He wants to give us stuff but what good would it do if HE gave everything we asked for? But  when Hashem sees that his children are following HIS ways and they are only asking for things that they really want in a way that shows they really want it then maybe Hashem will give it to us. Make sense?

-INH

Ineedhelp!! wrote on 17 Nov 2009 01:15:

MARK wrote on 17 Nov 2009 14:03:


I didnt say anything about Mitzvos. I really dont know the effect of a Miztvah in this world. Its a very complicated topic that I dont try to broach upon. Tefillah is a different thing though. And dont think of it having only one effect. We dont just daven to Hashem because we want something. We daven because we need to maintain a connection as well. Tefillah goes way deeper than Bakashos.

-INH