dov wrote on 08 Oct 2009 22:36:


I hear you loud and clear. We need to aware when we lust and let go of it. We don't need to obsess on the fact that we might be lusting cuz that will get us back in the garbage bin.

question: having a perspective on our lusting and other stuff really helps me ( and others) but  a personal psychoanalysis can get us into BIG trouble. So WHERE do we draw the line?

I wait for the wisdom to shine forth.

I just use the steps. I guess I have faith that working them simply and straightforwardly will draw enough out of the thinking stuff out of me to get the job done, and no more. Oh, and I need dibuk chaveirim - a sponsor and a group (meetings work for me, and phone-friends from the meetings) to retain perspective and "get out of my own head" as needed.

Sorry I can't define it any better than that. I just do not know how it really works. Maybe it's better that way...

SIMCHAS TORAH WAS GREAT GREAT!!

I ONLY SAW JOHNS WIFE FOR A SPLIT SECOND (WHO THE HARRY IS HARRY
IM HAVING A HARD ENOUGH TIME WITH JOHNS)

ANY HOW SHE WALKED  PASSED RIGHT BY ME "AZOI VEE CHAVELEH TZIM GET'
(SORRY ITS YIDDISH EFSHAR LETAKEN CAN TRANSLATE IT)

SHE SMILED(IM THINKINING SHE IS NUTS HERE I AM WALKING WITH 4 OF THE LITTLE b'S)

THEN I SAID OH! I KNOW HER SHE IS JOHNS WIFE FUGGGEDABOUTIT!!!

KEEP ON TRUCKING!!!!

AND I DID!!!

BTW EFSHAR AND I FOUND A PIECE OF ART IN THE GARBAGE I PICKED IT UP TO SEE IF IT HAD VALUE

EFSHAR DO YOU KNOW WHERE I CHUCKED IT??
YUP BY THE MILK CRATES BY BOCHNERS!! (100% EMES)
b

I think its important to remember that Dov comes from the perspective of having hit rock bottom. He knows with certainty that lusting out is poison for him.
He knows that a little lusting is an oxymoron.
So it follows naturally... why kler so much about John's (aka Harry) wife and WHY she is entering my consciousness...

And, good news, one does not have to be acting out every night in a red light district, to have hit rock bottom. You can do it while still on top.
Just contemplate what it looks like when one is engrossed in lusting, and then visit a pig pen with more than one pig, and throw in one pig-treat
;D

Ok. Maybe there are other ways. I don't know what 'talks' to you.

But the point is, those who have not yet hit bottom, may find all this talk beneficial.

k

kutan shel hachabura wrote on 12 Oct 2009 19:16:

I agree 100%. Read my post. All I was saying is that it does me no good. Sorry if it sounded like a shittah, or telling anyone else what to do....oops

I can't understand what was said on the first page - feeling bad for por*n stars? It's difficut for me to not want to skin them alive, let alone feel bad for them - what they did to me, to so many of my friends; i have no problem forgiving someone who wronged me with money, with my body, with my feelings, but my nitzchius, my connection to Hashem, my neshoma itself, how can i begin to forgive such a thing? Last week on chol hamoed I was buying something in a supermarket when this girl at the opposite counter was waiting on line - she saw this cat that hangs out at the supermarket and started screaming in horror, running for dear life - i was, truthfully, very happy; for all these years my mental image of immodest women was always cheerful, happy, sunshine, etc.., years and years of images, both 'pareve' from television and out-and-out tumah online got this idea drilled into my head that pritzus = fun and cheerfulness. I was so happy when I saw, although baruch Hashem didnt stare at, a prutzah who was anything but happy - i now had something to base my growth on. I also wasn't too far from enjoying the suffering of these reshoim - is that so wrong?

Anyway, it's not just them, it's any woman who walks around immodestly, especially those that know better(i.e., frum girls) - everyone has tayvos, I chap, and I don't have a hard time not judging people who have tayvos - but wanting, desiring to be machshil another yid, make yourself into the agent of the yatzer hora that will cause you both to lose both olam hazeh and olam haba, how, how is it shayach to do something so DISGUSTING?!? I even understand women wanting to be mezaneh with men, fine, that's tayvah, that's normal, but to dress that way when there's no znus, no yatzer hora for hana'ahs isser, I just dont get it - It's mamesh destroying the world, every time she walks on the street, another one falls, dropping like flies, one after another - it's not like the addictive pleasure that a man gets from master--, or watching treif; I'm just not masig it - can someone please explain this to me so I don't have sinas chinam to these people? I mean, we don't have rachmanus on amalek, right? why are they different? the zohar says that there are 5 levels of erev rav, the last one being amalek, and other seforim say that you can know that if someone is machshil someone else, that they're from the erev rav - so..they can also be from amalek? or is that too much of a stretch?

Dear Bochur,

If feeling bad for them doesn't work for you, then don't feel bad for them.

Bachor the sweetist,

How would you like only wearing black all day?

Anyone who dresses provoctivly is in pain and calling for attention to sooth that pain.
Spell check is not working sorry.

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!! There. I jst wanted to scream. YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND. YOU NEVER WILL. OKAY. I CAN'T KEEP MY CAPS OFF. TOO BAD. BUT Y CAN'T YOU BE DAN LKAF ZCHUS? I ALWAYS HEAR WOMEN SAYING THE SAME THING ABOUT MEN. "WHAT'S SO HARD ABOUT NOT LOOKING?", "SUCH LOWLIFES, THAT'S WHAT THEY THINK WHEN THEY JUST TALK TO ME?"....ETC. FRUM WOMEN DON'T DRESS UP TO BE MACHSHIL OTHER MEN. THEY DRESS UP BEC. JUST LIKE HASHEM GAVE MEN THE TAIVA TO LOOK AT WOMEN, HE GAVE WOMEN THE TAIVA TO WANT TO LOOK GOOD. TO DESIRE TO LOOK BEAUTIFUL. IF NOT IT WOULDN'T WORK. NOTHING TO DO WITH MEN. I LOVE DRESSING UP, BUT WILL TRY WALKING AT THE SIDE OF THE STREET, LOWERING MY EYES...ETC
SO NOT TO ATTRACT. AND STILL...MEN STARE. FRUM MEN.
HAVE U EVER FELT THE FEELING OF BEING THOUGHT OF AS AN OBJECT? WELCOME TO THE WOMEN'S WORLD. I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT LADIES WALKING AROUND LIKE PERVERTS. THEY DESERVE IT. I'M TALKING ABOUT FRUM WOMEN WHO ARE DRESSED OK, BUT STILL LOOK GOOD. MEN ALSO LIKE LOOKING GOOD. I DON'T PRETEND I UNDERSTAND ALL MEN TAIVOS, THOUGH I HAVE A PRETTY GOOD IDEA. BUT MEN MUST UNDERSTAND THAT THEY WON'T UNDERSTAND WOMEN AND THEIR TAIVOS.

THE POINT ISN'T ABOUT RIGHT AND WRONG. JUST SHOW SOME UNDERSTANDING. DON'T BASH FRUM WOMEN WHO TRY THEIR BEST, CONTRARY TO WHAT YOU THINK. MAYBE MEN NEED TO WORK ON THEIR SHMIRAS EINAYIM TOO.

Oops. I'm reaallly sorry for my outburst. Just came in response to many posts like these.

TrYiNg wrote on 13 Oct 2009 06:38:


All this and more was my point when I asked "How you you like to only wear black all day?"

Beautiful post,TrYiNg.

But you're missing his tzad a bit.
Men have a desire to show their wealth.
But if a guy walks into a poor neighborhood eating delicacies and wearing the fanciest clothing and such,that is just not right.
I understand that women want to look beautiful.
It is called a tayva.

I disagree with all these hate statements because think about what must be pushing the women to this.
A women who dresses provacatively obviously is in desperate need for attention.
But women must restrain themselves just as men must restrain themselves.
But I agree there is a limit.
All-black is a little extreme.

This is a big sugya.
Much bigger than me.

Trying, what an outburst.

Why should look beautiful go coupled with inviting looks?
Does a nice dress have to do with showing off body parts?

If you are dressed smart and look good your body would not attract attention to its limbs.

Sure a pretty woman’s face is a pleasure to look at and there isn’t much she can do about it, but the body of the average woman?

Even if in some conditions it may be harder to cover up those attractions it is anyway not beautiful.

There is a golden middle way and one should try to keep to it.

For the frum woman to wear a tight dress is unquestionable acting as an agent of the YH!

I am not judging anyone, just writing from experience. :-[

Everyone here has good points, including Trying!  :D

with regard to frum women, i am going to have to completely agree with Trying here...for those of you living in geula, please stop throwing your diapers, youre disgusting...

when a frum woman gets up in the morning and decides to look as good as she can the last thing shes thinking is "i hope that fat sweaty pimpled-faced geek gets off to my boots"...quite frankly, she doesnt do it for you she does it for herself...women like to look good and they like seeing other women that look good...it has absolutely nothing to do with men or YOU...dov, once (many times actually) said something that hit me...you always think that the woman at the coffee shop/supermarket/subway is thinking about you too and she never is....you do not exist in her life...maybe it is thoughtless and a bit selfish but how many times have men been thoughtless and selfish towards women? both are wrong and neither are evil...also i agree that the modesty level of our frum society has completely deteriorated but i think that applies equally to women wearing tight skirts and men driving escalades: both are immodest and need to be fixed but neither deserves the rath and hate of a fellow jew...

lehavdil ben hatameh vehatahor, when it comes to pornstars, your comment makes even less sense...we are living in a society where there are no red lines...from the age of 4 years old, they are being indoctrinated and taught that it is ok to do that...they are brainless lifeforms that have very little culpability....

can i give my 2 cents?bochur28 wrote on 13 Oct 2009 03:34:

bederech klal, girls don't dress to be machshil men. they dress because that's the fashion, that's what's considered normal in the outside world.
and there is a lot of peer pressure to dress that way. on the one hand you have all the rebbetzins yelling about four inches, and then you have the rest of the world, along with many other frum yidden telling you to dress just a little on the edge. after all, tightness is relative, right? it's not like either it's a garbage bag or it's saran wrap. so it's so easy to listen to the rest of the world, (who btw make it very difficult to find tznius clothing)
and most of the time it's not even done to attract men's attention.
girls are really naive (well, most of them, anyway) and they think it's easy not to look.
bochur28 wrote on 13 Oct 2009 03:34:

but that's the point! most of these girls would NEVER be mezaneh with men. They just don't understand!!!!
true, some of them want men's attention. but they would never dream that they are hurting that yeshiva bachur in the corner when they're standing and talking to some boys who WANT to talk to them.
they just think everyone's happy. they get attention, the boys get to talk/look at them, and the bochur in the corner isn't watching, he's learning.
bochur28 wrote on 13 Oct 2009 03:34:

and trying's right. we do have this tayva. we want to look good, to look pretty. and since single girls have no one to express that to, they just use it the wrong way. and then that mentality just goes into marriage too. so that women always want to look good, not just for their husbands,