Youch! Wow! Touched a few raw nerves - and that's really what it is. Let me explain -

We're all addicts. And that means we have a lot of raw emotions. But I think all of us - men and women - should be non-judgmental - heck, isn't that what GYE is all about ( hmmm... an oxymoron - am I judging people about being judgmental? )?

Let's look at the non-addict world, dear friends.

Men - someone who was zocheh not to go through these nisayonos - remember, Ever Katan Yesh L'Adam - has a lower threshhold of sensitivity; B"H I can see it myself in these early stages of recovery, and when I was in the throes in my addiction I was angry at every female who didn't look like an overweight wicked witch of the west. Then I realized a few things-

Regarding frum women who truly dressed to kill (beyond the line, according to everybody)-

Why wasn't I as mad at someone, who say, lied and stole and wore a frock. Why wasn't I as mad when the monsey meat scandal came out? Is that less hypocritical?

Two reasons -

A) I was the victim of it.
Tension turns into aggression.

But it didn't have much to with religious fervor. Just that I was on the receiving end of it. True, I have my own obligations, and for them I must answer for and not theirs - but still, we all agree that they made these nisayonos harder.

Also, as the girls pointed out, there is a real, real, female desire to be desired, end of story. Just as strong, and as overpowering as the male desire - just in a different way. Of course, girls have an obligation of modesty - and we also have an obligation. To say one nisayon is easier then the other is ridiculous. They express themselves differently.

And many, many girls struggle with where the line is; and the urge to look good is overpowering; there is no obligation to look frumpy. Some girls and communities dump fashion and makeup; but certainly none can demand girls do that - and I know I would have chance at recovery if my wife did. What is tzinius? The details are endless, and frankly, no sefer can cover it because of the ever changing nature of women's bodies, social fashions and male desire ( Don't even get me started on Oz V'Hadar Levusha) .
That's why tzinius is an sense of self, and a sense of self-esteem and intrinsic desirablitiy, and that is a constant nisayon to maintain from the latest fashions to that outfit that fit last week and anyways I'm going to lose those five pounds and nobody notices anyway and everything else I have is covered in baby spit...yada yada yada. It's oh so very real.

That's why you have a fine girl, who is a genuine Yareh Shamayim, who struggles with tzinius - JUST LIKE US! JUST LIKE US!

And we create it. The more we lust, the more we demand in shidduchim, the more girls feel the desperate pressure "to get noticed" that looks is the key to shadchanim and dates and the chuppah. And afterwards, as well. And add the peer pressure - it's a tremendous nisayon! Throw in an entire culture that worships the body - come on, are we being fair? Yes, it's still an obligation - but definetely a difficult nisayon.

Often married girls dress far more proactively then their single friends - often because of failed marriage, and a desperate need to be noticed be their husband - for a woman that is the equivalent of a slow death (unfortunately, sometimes this happens to attractive girls because they overdid it before, got married without him seeing anything on the inside, and are now left with just the outside, and a relationship can run on just that - John Grey in Mars & Venus on a Date writes about this). And she will do whatever she can to get some feeling of his attention - to heck with other men - or even some validation from other men - see hubby! I am desirable! See!

And again, girls are not obligated to be frumpy because we have no self-control. And I mean us. A woman shouldn't wear something that will draw the male eye, but that means the normal male eye. Because we've given ourselves - we addicts -  super sensitivity does not mean that women need to dress like potatoes. Adrabeh - many a marriage has hit a brickwall because of potatoism. Some have ended up here. And anti-potatoism is often part (NOT all) of the solution.

A Bas Yisrael is allowed to - and should -  look dignified, attractive but not enticing - see R'Moshe Sternbuchs' Toras HaBayis when he recommends that women wear sheitalach for this reason. Respectability. Not looking like you're wandering around in your pajamas.

But a toast to the tzanuos! A toast to those who leave that skirt on the rack , in their closet, - a toast to all those who bite their lips as the men look at her friend and not her. true, a genuine prutzah shares the onesh. Shouldn't a tznuah share the schar? Indeed, Rebbetzin Heller writes of Baaley Teshuvah who complained to her "that they lost their power" when they started dressing in accordance with the Torah (Our Bodies, Our Souls - a great read for the right perspective on all of this) - and she writes how healthy it is, and how she girls develop their "true power' which is so much deeper - and powerful (and not incidentally, the true glue of a marriage). For those who do - thank you, Bnos Yisrael.

And as far as those who don't - Rabbasoi, our obligation is our obligation, and I believe that collectively we've brought much of this upon ourselves, and after some time of self-control things get less attractive, and that many are trying to heal their own feelings of emptiness and lack - in or out of a marriage. May Hashem heal then all, and us as well.
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The unwritten rule these days in Kiruv seminaries (krovim and recokim) is that teachers must be attractive. What a world, what a world...

Mr. B - I don't get it. What is the problem with Tzinius?

kanesher wrote on 13 Oct 2009 16:49:


ITS NOT TAUGHT THE RIGHT WAY

IT NEEDS TO BE TAUGHT WITH PRIDE!!!

I DO

BY EXAMPLE!

IF A TEACHER WEARS A PERFECT SHEITEL "EVERYSINGLE DAY"

COACH SHOES WITH A MATCHING POCKET BOOK

THE RIGHT MAKE UP
( A HINT OF HINT OF A HINT OF PERFUM)

SMART SUITS

BOY DOES SHE TEACH TZNIUSS