Hi,
Baruch Hashem I don't have a problem with improper websites, and I've overcome a HUGE yetzer hara in the last couple of years, but some horrible things remain. As much kavana as I put in to my krias shma al hamitah (with additional pesukim and such), as much as I try not to sleep on my back or stomach, as much as I limit my food and drink consumption late at night, I still get Keri during the night. Sometimes they are the result of a hirhur-dream, but sometimes I just wake up that way. I've limited a lot of hirhurim, but my yetzer hara still says "think about ploni almoni!" and often wins. I don't know what to do, and I come here desperately after three consecutive nights of this avon.

i'm far from an expert on this, but is there more to the story? you say you think about ploni - maybe this is the cause? meditation is always a way to help control where your thoughts go.are you an addit? that puts a whole new light on things.

well yes. im only stating this here because its anonymous---ive always had a problem with thinking about other bochrim. meditation is a good idea. ill try that. by addict, do you mean to innappropriate websites? no, not anymore. but i still have leftover thoughts from a problem a few years ago.

I've been told not to worry about keri, and in general worrying about something doesnt ever make it better. Keep doing your best and dont worry about it. Say your posukim, with kavana, but also keep in mind that your best is all you can do. If your body feels the need to release whatever, for whatever reasons (there are biological, spiritual, and psychological reasons, most being normal) than so be it. I found that at the point when I started really being bothered by them and stressed a lot about them they happened at least 2X as often. when I just kept an eye (pardon the pun) on myself, letting go otherwise of the concern, bli ayin hara BH they have been greatly reduced.
keep up the good work!
M

This may sound like a stupid idea to you, but as you are still wasting sperm regularly to this tempting person, I will just commiserate with you and say what works for me and some other people I know. Pray for hert (or him, or whoever this 'ploni' is). Daven for them right as you are going to sleep from the bottom of your heart, no matter who it is. Ask Hashem to help this person with health, wisdom, saving from making the kind of mistakes that so many of us humans make somethimes like way misguided life priorities, etc. Beg Hashem to give this person a true relationship with Hashem - even a giy needs to be aware of the thruth, that there is a G-d and that G-d created him or her for a real, significant purpose, whatever it may be. Choviv Odom...all odom, and chavivin Yisroel is beyond that. But we all desperately need these prayers you will utter on your bed (if you choose to) - from the pritzus goyishe schmutz model, to the beautiful gadol baTorah who is a Kadosh. We all need these same things, each at his or her own level. Gotta start somewhere. Let your prayer be that start for her, him, whoever it is.

And include yourself by name at the end and ask Hashem to give the same thing to you.

BTW, Rav Yaakov Koppel, zy"a, a very great 17th century mekubal has a tfilah that is very similar to this idea. And there are gemoras in Brachos that seem to indicate the same thing, too.

Go for it. Drop the fear of the person - for your fear of 'ploni' is what gives 'ploni' the power he or she has. Forget about trying with all your might to distract yourself from "thinking of 'ploni' c"v". You already are, amigo. It's not working. And instead, do something positive for this person and for yourself in turn. For 'ploni' is an eved Hashem, too, as you and I are, chaver. As we just said a few days ago in our davening: "Ki hakol avodecho"!

Just the humility of letting go of your old ideas and dear old ways may be the 'zechus' (or rather, 'zakus') you need to have Hashem's help keeping you clean tonight. Leave the challenge in His domain, totally. Have no fear at all. As Yesod Yosef writes, the fear of having a wet dream is one of the greatest causes of it - "v'es meguroseihem avee aleihem", the novi wrote. This prayer thing is a new way for you. Please consider it. And stop asking Him to protect you from the keri, for Heaven's sake. It just triggers fear in you, I bet.

Hatzlocha with trying something totally new, and I wish you patience, as no derech is foolproof. Try it and see how it works for you.

- Dov

I can't thank you guys enough. I guess davening fr the person is sort of being maaleh the nitzotzos of that person in your mind. And being unafraid. There's no reason for a human being to be afraid of a malach, kal vachomer a demon!

Malach? You think you are struggling with a malach? My belief is that those who talk of this business as 'struggling with a malach' are just trying to make this battle more respectable. The fact is that you, me, pretty much all of us are just struggling with our own penises. Yep, I wrote the word. Plain and simple. We like the way fantasy and orgasm feels and we want more of it and expect more of it. Call it 'nefesh bahamis' - it makes no difference what u call it. Call it 'a struggle with the malach' - but sad to say, it is the exact same struggle that goyim who are trying to stop masturbating have. No difference. None at all.

And actually, I know more goyim than Jews who are desperately trying to stop using porn and masturbating. Being made a monkey out of by your own penis is a tiring 'battle', and everyone knows it. Out of control can be 'romanticized' by labeling it with kabalistic terms...but therein lies part of why we keep falling.

Framing it in holy terms does not convert the struggle into something holy - that's just more fantasy, only this time, it is religious fantasy. Mazel Tov. Fantasy of any kind separates us from avodas Hashem. Cuz Hashem is real. The only reality, actually, and far more real than we are. And yet we are not Ba'al Shem Tovs - we operate in our simple, physical reality. We just do. We are here and need to recognize that if we are to serve Him in reality - our reality.

Derech Eretz kodmah laTorah is just a fact I feel we need to face.

If guys insist on speaking in 'atzilus' terms, I ask them "and where was atzilus when our pants were around our ankles and we were masturbating ourselves in front of the computer?" We can pretend to 'elevate' our struggle into a purely spiritual one - wrestling with klipasYesodorwhatever - but how long must we pretend?

It's really just a struggle with ourselves, our sex drives, and our fantasies and mostly just our messed-up expectations. Simple.

Of course in the end, after you make changes and stay clean a while, through you will come some kind of tikkun and some of the RaPa"Ch nitzotzos will be raised out of the klipos they are in...but I say "good luck trying to get clean and stay clean by viewing it as a struggle with klipos, the yetzer hora, samo"h([s]el[/s]), Li"l([s]is[/s]), or whatever." For most, doing that is nothing but a childish charade, painting a universal and very human struggle in respectable and spiritually romantic terms. But as long as you and others desperately need this struggle to be 'respectable'...I doubt there will be true success.

Here I am in my succah, and I hope you take my point well. For many do not. But they are not clean, either, so....

Gut Moed!

- Dov

There's really no need to launch into hashkafic rants. I didn't explain myself and I think we have very different views of the problem, but I don't think that has anything to do with the purpose of the site, which is giving people ways to "break free" from the problem. let's not create sinas chinam here.

That's just Dov. He loves you as a Yid, and he isn't yelling.
And if he didn't care about you, he wouldn't have said anything. And don't mess with his experience.

Gut Moed, and lots of Ahava!
Meir

Woah, sorry for saying the wrong thing in the wrong way. I have no sin'ah. I also know I did not intend on putting you down in any way c"v and do not look down at you in any way at all. I am just a frum man who has been in the mikvah many a time for keri, read the good sforim on keri, and struggled with lust while framing it in religious terms - and never got clean for over 15 years doing that. Now I have been clean for over 15 years be"H, and I just don't want others to suffer needlessly. So I wrote the above. That's the only reason. Nothing to do with you, or disresepect of any kind. In fact, most of my learning nowadays in is sforim hakedoshim, actually, so I am very respectful of the concepts you bring up - and to you!

My intuition was telling me that you were framing this personal, bitter struggle in Torah terms - actually kabalistic terms. And as precious and meaningful as that can be theoretically, I believe b'emunah sheleimah that cold water needs to be poured on the things that cause us to lust: like labeling our struggle as an ruchniyusdikeh one when it really isn't.

If you insist that your struggle is truly misunderstood by me, I accept that 100% - it's your business anyhow, not mine! But I saw, and I tried my part. If I missed the boat, for that I am very sorry, chaver.

Do you want me to erase what I wrote - I mean, do you consider it an insult? I am very sorry and will erase it if you suggest I am just way off base, here, too. Whatever - it is your thread.

Thanks for the feedback, and continued hatzlocha.

Dov is a great guy and a tzaddik. nuff said.
Oh. And welcome Shalti. [If you're fighting with a malach you should call yourself "Shaltiel", or Yisroel, as in "Shuvah Yisrael... ki [i]Kashaltah[/i].]

I am very sorry, I don't know why I got so defensive. That can be quite a chisaron of mine. Thank you for your advice. I'm not offended, I was just being...I don't know. Whatever it was, I harbor no sinah either. (It's really beautiful that on a site with hundreds of anonymous yidden, everbody's so loving and closely knit. Thank you, thank you, thank you!)

A gut Moed!

Kashalti wrote on 04 Oct 2012 15:36:

Reb Guard, we've got another haskama here!!

Re: Struggling with keri -

Recently we learned (Brachos 57b) that six things are considered good signs for an ill person, and one of them is keri. So I was thinking, if an addict is actually an ill person, then keri is a good sign for him.

MT

How is the gemara explained there? Keri is a good sign for an ill person? Why?
Interesting contribution though.
Happy isru chag!