This is so strange, when I'm upset I simply can't stay sober.
I feel how when I'm angry I'm not powerless, and then when I want to act out to soothe what's hurting - I fall right away.
So it's clear that for me to stay sober I must incorporate all my relationships with other people into my powerlessness, but I don't know how on earth to do that. Meaning, to daven every time lust hits is a very clear simple agenda, however to never be upset is way more complicated.

Any ideas, chevra????

thats because the only reason to be angry is because you feel like you are in control otherwise why be angry.if you know hashems in control you wont be annoyed.he put me in this situationhe knows its good for me.
in the 12 steps a significant part of the program is dedicated to removing anger restlessness irritility...by recognising how the cause of the above is ego, asking hashem to remove the specific defects of character caused by ego.also we discussed the fact that you should recognise if others are at fault(also as well as one self at fault,because anger always indicates ego of self)that we can view them the same way as physically ill people and ask hashem to heal them of their faults.
Hatzlocho Rabah!!!!!!!!

ChaimCharlie wrote on 09 Aug 2012 17:06:

As to how to chill...

Yeah. I tend to be very chilled. It's a gift from Hashem. I've been feeling powerless for a few years already, regarding learning, family, money... But not for m***, until I came here.

So that's the key. Surrender. The more I realize it is out of my control, the more I'm at peace.

I just need to keep remembering.

Thanks for the reminder.
Meir

Thanks tocontrolmyself and E-Tek. Very helpfull.

I also spoke to 2 people about this, I learned (similarly to what you guys mentioned) that I must treat resentments and fears like every trigger, to realize that if I accept this negative emotion I'm gonna get stuck in it and won't be able to find my way out - so instead I'll surrender it to Hashem and ask Him to take it from me, I simply don't want it.

Not so much because my intellect tells me that to drop this feeling is the right thing to do, rather because my sobriety is just too important to sacrifice. I'd rather recover from my addiction and not relate to that hurting comment from someone who knows how to get me good, than to feel strong that burning sting of insult and end up acting out today or tommorow.

It's not easy, but I'm learning that this is what recovery is about.

Any more comments or ideas????

wow this posting is all whack. I really get the feeling that you are trying to fight things, that you are going to grab the demon by horns and prove him wrong... maybe this is the first necessary and important stage? But I don't get it. I don't see any recovery structure that I'm used to. Then again, I've been hangin' up my hat at strange places so what do I know.

Anyhow maybe i've been out of the loop for too long, not doing enough work of my own. I feel like my thoughts are the problem, not the solution. And the more I try to think and grapple with things, the deeper I spin my wheels. I've got to stop thinking and just relax and breathe. Maybe.

Anyhow your program seems to be working - do you have a sponsor and do you go to meetings? I guess the powerlessness is the first step, which can well take you to Rosh haShinuy...

Thanks for visiting, Edge. Whatta ya mean that I'm fighting things, I thought that's what I'm trying to stop doing?

About meetings and sponsors, I've spoken to some chevra, but I see that when I get too involved in the depth of it all pretty soon everything unravels, for now I need some plain old work - I think. Maybe similar to what you mentioned about relaxing and breathing.

All the best!!!!

You are obviously doing the twelve step program, so yes, they are right, you need to surrender your resentment.

You can also try thinking to yourself "just because I am angry at this person it doesn't make him wrong." But I am in the cognitive therapy camp. Your problem is that you believe you are powerless, so you always fold. Surrender works, but it cements the irrational belief, hence the need to go to meetings for the rest of your life.

Still, 12-step should get you long periods of sobriety.

nederman wrote on 23 Aug 2012 02:01:


Lately, when I get into such situations where I'm upset about somebody or something, and I feel my old habits creeping up at me, I say to myself (very strongly), "Just because I'm upset doesn't mean I need to act out." B"H it works for me.

MT

R' Nederman the cognitive man - I don't know the 12 step philosophy, and even less the cognitive teachings, just a bit of Torah and some true things I was shown by a few dear friends. The gemara is clear that our yetzer harah is stronger that us and we need Hashem's help every single day, so I guess powerlessness isn't so far off.

R' MT - I like that, nice and simple. That's what complicated Charlie (yeah, that's me) needs. Straight and to the point. Iv'e also found helpfull to drop the anger itself in a similar way: "don't get angry cause it can trigger you".

Thanks guys for stopping by.

All the best to all of us!!!!!!

The Gemara doesn't say in what form Hashem will help.

Are you powerless ore ice cream? No? How can it be - the Gemara says the yetzer is more powerful ...

Good question. I think the answer is the idea of bechira as expressed by R' Dessler (Michtav Meliyahi vol.1), that my nisayon isn't for every wrong thing I can possibly do, just for where my struggle lies (that's saying it very simply).

Even simpler, for myself I am able to apply the Gemara way better for masturbation than ice cream.

You have no proof that G-d's help will come in the form of surrender. The Mesillas yesharim is clear that he yetzer is powerless when people stop and think. He also says that sin is hidden by rationalization. He does not say anywhere that victory over the yetzer hara comes from acceptance. It comes from reflection. In other words, the yetzer hara is you. You are not powerless, you are just telling yourself that you are.

Talk about the yetzer hara is designed to help you compartmentalize, so you can keep on going in an imperfect state. I.e. yesterday I masturbated, the yetzer hara won. But I am still in the running, so to speak, because I am really the yetzer tov. But eventually if you want to change you have to accept that you do not want 100% what Hashem wants for you. You want yiddishkeit with porn. But you also believe that a person like that, an apostate, is worth nothing. Once you accept that you are not powerless you can actually choose to stop using porn. The best part is that there are excellent reasons for giving up porn, or whatever sin, other than just the fact that Hashem tells you to do it.

I also want to point out that I am not trying to start a flame war, just arguing for a different approach. You can take it or leave it.

what belief systems are operating that you feel the need to "argue" for a different approach? Fierce dedication to the truth? Are you sure that is your only motivation? How can you be sure your own motivation really?

Do you really feel you are can exert power over people, places and things? I guess that belief would make you a proverbial 12 step heretic.

Cognitive therapy makes perfect sense for illness such as depression.

However, when it comes to addiction, it is simply unproven. The fact that one guy stopped masturbating by applying cognitive techniques doesn't constitute proof. In contrast, a recovery program such as the 12 steps has helped millions of people from diverse cultures recover from many different kinds of addiction. That's robust proof that it works. Do you know of congnitive therapy groups that are consistently helping large numbers of people recovery from addiction? Or is it, this makes sense and worked for me so everyone should drop what they're doing and do this instead?

In addition, in the throes of addiction, a defining feature is the turning off of one's rational thinking. Therefore, a therapy based on rational thinking is going to help precious few in their journey to recovery. So it may be an additional tool, but I wouldn't bet my retirement fund on it as my only weapon.

Thanks Alex... you were the rational voice that I was lacking.