RT wrote on 12 Jul 2012 21:11:
I just wrote about it now on another thread...and other times. Try this:

www.guardyoureyes.org/forum/index.php?topic=5455.0 />
What's the ikkar though, is doing what works - really works - so we stay clean today. Concerns and distractions about 'Teshuvah' or 'olam haboh' are all very irrelevant, frumkeit and kedusha are all irrelevant for us - if we are addicts and cannot stop using our drug. We need to stop and get helkp to stay stopped for today.

And that cannot be done by holding out breath or by 'gevalt! just fight the yetzer hora' and 'resisting for today'. Those will eventually force a major exhalation and for many they guarantee collapse. It builds a wall of holiness that falls onto us for we cannot support it. Cuz well-intentioned as it may be, it is all romantic religious gayvoh. Self-centered religious lust.

In fact, does anyone wonder why they developed the porn and masturbation habit around the same time they were becoming truly religiously committed? Coincidence? I doubt it.

Our frumkeit and self-centered religious lust (what normal people call madreigos and kedusah) were actually the fuel that drove our porn use and sex with self! The terrible guilt (uch He is so disgusted with me! I just killed thousands of innocent children! I am worse than a Nazi!), the exhilarating mikvah-going (He took me back! Wow!! And I am even higher than tzaddikim gemurim! He loves me so much!), the sick ratzo vashov we know so well....Hashem is not my cleaning lady, whose main interest is wiping my sperm off my neshomah. No, actually he is not. And as exhilarating as they may be for us, the huge swings from being l'yitzri - then l'Yotzri...are actually sick. And they feed one off the other. Each extreme breeds a need for the other. Oy li v'oy li.

So it seems that for the habitual chronic porn/masturbation users, the way we are using our religion is sick - as sick as our porn use, actually. It must be, I figure. For how could we have a real sweet relationship with hashem - yet still be able to 'sneak away' and feast on the sweet porn, eventually feasting on that sweet orgasm in the bathroom or in the bed with ourselves? Where is our religion? Explaining it by saying that "we are just being bad" only makes sense for me when referring to the occasional user. But there comes a time when it is just too much. When it is just too habitual. When it takes too much of a priority in our minds and lives and we are really sick and need help.

As one who has reached and lived in that state - while being mekarev yidden, learning and even teaching Torah for years...I know 'sick'.

And in recovery, I had to face the fact that while the Torah and Yiddiskeit are perfect - I am not. My view of my own G-d is not. My use of my own G-d is not. And that is part of recovery. I am grateful that the 12 steps helps guide me on the right path yet does not tell me what to believe.

Hatzlocha!!

I love Dov, and I love doing Shakla Vetarya with him. Anyhow, this morning I read the latest GYE Chizzuk email. There was a letter from Rabbi Twersky, followed by a Dov piece regarding the 12 steps and traditions. But the letter from R' Twersky, who also advises the 12 steps "where applicable", outlines a completely different approach, which apparently may be applicable in at least certain situations.

The following are excerpts of that letter:

The Cancer of Internet

By Rabbi Twerski

Not a week goes by that I don't get several calls about new casualties to the internet…

What can we do? One phrase comes to mind, that of Avraham Avinu to Avimelech, "There is just no fear of G-d in this place" (Bereishis 20:11). Whatever else one may do, if there is no yiras shamayim, everything is possible, even the most immoral behavior...

… Remember the words of Avraham Avinu "There is just no fear of G-d in this place." Without true yiras shamayim nothing else will work.



Hmmm, can't figure out - is that confusing, or enlightening?

MT

I think R' Twerski is referring to getting started with internet shmutz.
Once someone is already addicted, yiras shomayim isn't enough. And haven't we all learned to switch off our yiras shomayim when we need to act out?

Especially if true Yiraas Shomayim is translated as reality.
Yes- as long as we are living in reality, we are fine. It is when we slip out of reality and into fantasy that our troubles begin.
How does one grow in Yiraas Shomayim?
(Rav Berkowitz, of course) BY GROWING IN EMUNAH. What is Emunah? An understanding of what the true reality is.
Work on living in reality as often as possible. You grow in Yiraas Shomayim.
And Dov would say, if reality tells you that Torah knowledge doesn't help, then do what works instead.
And vica versa. To each his own.

Hatzlacha!
Meir

Great posts and thanks to all for posting. My original Delimma was about the fact of starting to date or not. I read them all and listened to more from different types of people. I believe that I have reached a level where I can date. I went ahead. For reasons unrelated to the addiction it did not work out. However I believe that things turned out as it was meant to turn out. Sure the date never came to pass but being in the position with the ability to be able to taught me a few things.
1-lust was not the driver of this show! God was
2-lust did not affect any of the information I provided when it came to being honest about myself (I did not blurt out every dirty piece of information either. Just enough that was appropriate for her to make a informed decision and determine who I am now, was, and plan to be without trying to look like a nebach or a saint)
3-as I went in saying that it's in gods hands I come out saying the same thing and I don't feel like I have to resort to my drug. Living reality as etek put it and it feels great!

So in the end it was never meant to be (for now at least) but the experience was a gift from god and I am greatful for it. Am I gonna start seeking now? No. I still feel that there are some things that need to be ironed out but for 24/6 god grants me a strong ability to surrender lust and live reality. As for the day that always has me fighting for my life I think at this point its about living better on that day. Not sure if I mentioned it but on Sundays my mind is like completely wasted due to sleep being completely off the night before. that said I will not deny what god provides.

I would also like to share what has worked for me and it may help others when it comes to the idea of surrendering lust. I always kept hearing that I need to surrender. It worked for sometimes but other times I really could not and I was left hanging. So I thought if I could surrender why do I need god? In a sense if I could surrender then I could make life manageable, I don't need a higher power and I don't need to offer myself to him. First 3 steps goes out the window! I really did not have the power to surrender. That's when I started asking god to grant me the power. And I must say its worked beautifully till now in lust and even in other areas of my life. So now I say "god grant me the power to surrender lust in all areas of lust which is CTA (crave, thought, and action) because I cannot." it may not sound traditional(or maybe it is and I just really never understood it correctly) but it works for me and I wanted to share. By doing so there is no "I" which means no ego!, also keeps recovery more alive daily, helps in other areas in life as well, and does loads for being greatful because it makes you realize that there is a higher power running the show and there is more benefits of course.

Wow that was a long one
Anyway thanks for reading and writing! Hatzlacha to al!

E-Tek wrote on 19 Jul 2012 03:44:

Hey, I just want to clarify that I never said that Torah-knowledege doesn't help. I never said that self-knowledge doesn't help.

Please bear with me (if u want to):

For a frum chronic masturbater it just isn't working, and that is just a fact. It's not a religious or moral issue - but a historical fact. Why is not relevant at this stage, but what, is relevant. How did he (or she) get that way in the first place is obvious! He (or she) does not possess a useful enough relationship with His G-d. I do not say a frum enough relationship or that he (or she) is not holy enough...but rather, I say useful in terms of living free of the bondage to lust. Of course, as Alex posted above, a new user, in early habitual use, is not in this category, at all! Everybody does aveiros sometimes and usually chizzuk, mussar, his'orerus are needed, and they work!

A frum guy who is desperately stealing sweet porn-looks on a regular enough basis that it (or the struggle with it) is taking up too much real estate in his head, will be miserable. His relationship with his G-d is obviously not working. And he (we) knows it. So he is miserable and fights, tries all sorts of things to stop (acts as though he hates schmutz, even though he clearly loves it and runs after it at significant risk) and if he fails...he is probably an addict. Just like your run-of-mill drunk or crack user. Exact same type of person. Both are good people being truly moser nefesh to drug up, and obviously cannot stop. He knows this, but does not want to face it because he assumes that is unacceptable and apikorsus....but really it's just plain old denial, but in (very) religious garb.

That's what I do when I act out with sex or lust. The why is actually not relevant to getting my sanity and freedom back. The answer that works for many drunks the world over is acceptance of the facts and taking action to stay sober by eliminating the secrecy, giving up (surrender) feeding our lust, and taking the actions of love to those around us, to Hashem, and to ourselves (mischaseid im atzmo).

The simple fact (Emess) is that in my problem: I become desperate, very religiously embattled and focused, somewhat paranoid (think that people must somehow be looking down on me as a stinker), altogether self-obsessed, and the worse I feel about all this the more I am moser nefesh to get my sweet fix of porn, fantasy, and/or orgasm! And it is all based on secrecy which I maintain by teaching more Torah, being mekarev more people, davening with more kavonah - and being more critical of others....sheesh. It is exhausting to be crazy!

So in my solution: I become progressively open about my past to other addicts like me, progressivley more open to my wife - and learn how to live totally open to everybody about the present. I practice progressively giving rather than taking; stop comparing everybody else's strong and good outsides to my weak and often bad insides; relax and accept G-d's Will for me as the best He has to offer for me right now instead of feeling sorry for myself all the time. For me, this takes real working with and speaking to G-d, real written work, and real (meaning, in person) recovery relationships. No internet virtual username garbage would ever have worked for me - and would not work for me still.

But I am not saying YOU need what I need! Gezunderheit. GDo what works for you!! But if you are still mastubating yourself, I suggest that your blindness may be a lot worse than you realize...our comfort zone is always our problem, never the solution. That much, I can say unequivocally...

None of this part of the solution is about thinking, mussar-ing, or hisbodedus. It is all about taking action. Hashem knew Avraham Avinu would overcome and do the akeidah all along. But He wanted Avraham Avinu to change through doing it. Only doing changes us.

Ash wrote on 19 Jul 2012 09:54:


Motzei Shabbos is a challenging time for many, because we're all rested up from Shabbos. All revved up with no place [healthy] to go.

Consider taking a shorter Shabbos nap. Re-work your weekly schedule if possible so you're not so tired on Shabbos. Set up an afternoon chavrusa so you have to end the nap. Arrange to be tired Motzei Shabbos so you can go to sleep and not set yourself up.

I will be changing things up this week so that my mind isn't mush on Sunday....one of the reasons I have been having consistent successful weeks other then Sunday is because I changed things up during the week. I eat, sleep, exercise, work, contemplate better and healthier. That along with focusing on the day and surrendering (asking the powertoanyway) has been working nicely. Although i must confess something. Sunday is a bigger fear then I thought. Enough that when I think about it the effects spill over. While I did not act out it got lust geared up. I am back on track now because like any other day of the week I tell myself just today. While I know Sunday is approaching it is not here yet and I am not going to think twice about it. Thanks for the posts. One measure I will be putting in place, along with a better sleep schedule, is to get rid of ways to act out Sunday (that's me taking action) so I will not be posting (as much as my yet zed hora is saying) but I will definitely be posting something on monday morning. Take care all.

I just wanted to point out that it really could be that the MAIN MAIN issue is sleep. R' Avigdor Miller said that in the morning when our minds are still tired we restort to our old thinking patterns. It takes time to get the mind sane and if your tired all sunday that could be the major cause. So good luck trying AlexEliezers advice.

I'm back here on this fine Monday morning. So here is how things went. I took preventive measures for Sunday as well as try to get better sleep throughout the weekend. It definitely helped. I feel I should mention that over Friday night was the day I fell. I started to think too much of what's to come Sunday and it nailed me. I have been making it a point to take one day at a time but slipped up Friday. However Sunday did not kill me. Better sleep meant I was living better and more in reality. Did it help that I blocked out stuff to use in the event of a lust attack sure but as we all know lust has no boundaries and it dosnt need anything to make us go insane. I did have a few cravings yesterday but because my mind wasn't mush I was able to handle it for the most part as I would during the week. It almost sounds like I am trying to outsmart it and fight it so that I could enjoy it...that is not the case. As the prayer goes "god, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference" I am tweaking my daily life so that I don't have to be fighting and dealing with it head on. That I know I have the power to change. Oh well at the very least god thinks I'm not done as I am still here .
Will keep updating and reading throughout the weeks. Hatzlacha to all!

Great! keep it up!

Good morning. So today I have been asked to go along with someone to a meet as a backup and second pair of ears. What's relevant is that in order to be effective in doing this task is I need to tap in to my old self...yikes!!. Not all the way just the cold calculation emotionless negative person I used to be. the reason being is because the individual, I and the family member are going to meet ,is like wise the same with an addiction called money and will use any method, even fraud from what it looks like, in obtaining it (who says money isn't an addiction). Why am I writing this post? It's more of a surrender and accountibility rather than to obtain advice as I will need to leave shortly after this post. I have had times when I had to be that other person and have done a pretty good job with that but this is longer and it's not something that happned spontaneously. Oh well can't really hate it as being that extreme saved me countless times from doing very stupid things when it came to the live stuff. Ok, so I hope to write tonight. Thanks in advance for the views and posts!

So here I am.things went well. Was able to bring in part of my old mentality and not end the day lusting, not that I was scot free. By the grace of god I am still sober and most importantly today. Turbulent times look to be on the horizon but I trust Hashem to help me through them (thinking back he has been helping all along, I was just blind and closed to see it)

So I regretfully report a fall this morning. I feel mellow and neutral. By some miracle I do not give up.i still think at this point it's hugely tied tied to my sleep schedule. I am not sulking or in a putty party, just neutral. I can really never predict how things will go. A day like two days ago was a perfect opportunity to act but last night was so nice. ...anyway I like to say being sober is a gift but not giving up and trying to do better is a even bigger gift. All I ask is for today.

I can relate with the sleep thing...I think I'll quit posting around 11:45 tonight. I am in my bed and it's quiet here. Cozy with netbook and GYE, Mikd Savage on the radio tearing left-wing America with his words...reminds me of a song from many years ago...oh, sorry. Is it assur to remember Roberta Flak? Never mind.

Ash! Keep us the good work. You are geshmak!