Funny, once a sweet, married, chassidishe yid who had been with a number of prostitutes and was finally ready to stop listened to me as I described my own addiction and recovery to him and how it differs from aveiros and Teshuvah. He then said:

I would buy dirty videos for big money, watch them, and then break them and cry...I always wondered: what kind of Rosho is this? A Rosho breaks his expensive CD's? This is not a Rosho. I knew something did not make sense...

BTW, b"H he is sober today, has a new life, eventually told his wife everything, working on real life without his 'girlfriends' and is finally a real chassidishe yid, for a change - all because he was finally ready to do whatever it took to stop and stay stopped instead of just wanting to stop and stay stopped with every fiber of his being...wanting is nice, but it does nothing.

What would that mean lemayse? What had somebody to do?

He admitted to himself that his ikkar problem was actually more his hiding, faking and lying than his lusting, sex and masturbating. So "change" meant he had to open up honestly to another person - a real person, not just a virtual person like on a forum which is not real and gives few butterflies to the stomach. And when he did that he needed to use his real name and his real voice - fake names and muffling the voice are all just that: more faking and more lying.

After he opened up to a real person, he admitted that he had to go to actual meetings (funny, people here say, "you mean "live" meetings?" or "face-to-face" meetings...of course! There is no other real meeting than one in which you actually meet someone!

He opened up there after hearing them open up and speak his language there, as never before. And he has started wrking the real steps. Not talking about them and studying them, but really working them in action - and with other real recovering people some of who do the same things he does when he acts out his lust. So it is all more real.

He had to make some small but real changes in things like how he is feirzach at his job, home, and relationships - how he behaves and the liberties he allows himself that really feed the lust, resentment, lying, or other problems. Like opening up, like who and what he spends his time with, and where he goes, whatever...every case is different.

If you want, I could ask him if you could call him and ask that. Just let me know, chaver. But this is the beauty of meetings: you get to meet many , and some there have a very similar story to your own. I know you are not married, not 35 years old, and do not see prostitutes. So finding others who are desperate to quit doing the stuff you do - and suffered enough as a result of stuff you do that they became ready to do anything to quit and stay quit...now, that would be helpful to you.

And to me. That's why I keep going to meetings. I do not just want to be sober for 15 years - my 15 years are over, for they are yesterday and yesterday is over, you know. I want to die sober, too, and to do that one needs to live sober one day at a time - not two. I can't go to the bathroom for tomorrow no matter how hard I push, can I? So it's one day at a time cuz that's reality. For we never know what day the 'most important one' will be. So today is actually always going to be best and most important day for me to be sober.

Did that answer anything for you, or not really?

You did, reb Dov. And thank You for that.

May I ask 1 more question? Do you think, that there is no other way than to make it like you said "live" ?

looking forward, r"T

Of course anything is possible...and those are not just words. I believe that R' Elozer ben Durdaya was probably an addict - and he surrendered his life and was fixed. He had to die. That is similar to what happens to many addicts. They surrender their lives to stay sober. The religious people see surrendering their lust as the only 'solution' - as the RMB"M puts it in hilchos Teshuvah by teshuvah gemurah. It's all about the lust and overcoming the YH, right? But since addiction is not a religious issue for an addict (it only affects religious issues), when an addict listens to the religious oriented folks and sincerely gives up his lust...he usually fails. He does, you know. Just look at the actual statistics for GYE when apparently 'real' addicts use it. Not that good, I'd venture to say.

Ella what: He needs to give up his life...at least his crazy life. And trust me, that's a very tall for him order no matter how crazy, painful, and disgusting his life may have become. We hang onto our familiar failing life we have with all our power - till it gets too hard. Then we either give up our insanity up (not the acting out of our lust) - or give up our lives R"l and throw in the towel...till maybe Hashem will have rachmonus and make life too painful again. Maybe this time he'll give it up - the crazy life - and get the help he fears most (opening up). It feels like nothing short of suicide to the poor addict.

And the first step is exactly dependent on acceptance of personal responsibility. In other words, "ein hadovor tolui ella bee". The mountains (our parents) will not save us, the heavens (a tzaddik) will not save us, the earth (our therapist) will not save us...only me and my private relationship with my own G-d - as we say in davening: "Elokai" my G-d. (R' Tzvi-Meyer cooks on this topic, that our relationship with Hashem ought to be personal, not with the G-d of the Book, but Elokai, Yedid nafshi.) That's the entire point. And who better to do that than a sick - truly sick - person. Those who are 'being bad' do not really need G-d to 'be good', for they see their tafkid as doing it without G-d and overcoming - beating - their YH. They can say the party line, "of course I mean that He helps me" till they are blue in the face - if they are addicts they do not really mean it and never get clean. But those who come to see that they are sick and let G-d have them and take care of them are more like Noach. Walking with Hashem rather than in front of Him. Nu. For an addict that's not too shabby...it's definitely a good start.

Yes, all this mesiras nefesh (surrender of self) stuff is very choshuv for a regular yid. He can certainly live without it (it's a heicherer madreiga)...maybe he'll just get s'char for talking about it, making drashos and the like. But it is completely indispensable for an addict who recovers using the 12 steps whether he or she be a Jew or a goy. And while using the 12 steps together with other addicts like him he will learn how to continue growing up, become more honest and useful to others, and give his life to his own G-d more and more...and all that takes years and years and never really ends of course. Just like in yiddishkeit. Except that the 12 steps and recovery is all Derech eretz, not Torah, of course.

So you see what I am talking about, here. You really think that joining SA could be the only possible way to get this stuff? I say that can't be. But I will say that it is much, much harder to get them while trying to swim with the 'normals'. And it is quite a shock meeting goyim who have these things, while only yechidei segulah yidden (and the recovering addicts) may really have them. This recovery thing is not about becoming a tzaddik - it is about becoming a boteyach baShem. And Chaza"l teach us that even a rosho can become a boteyach baShem and that when he does, "Chesed yisovevenhu"! Hey, again, not a bad starting point...

If one really works the basics of yiddishkeit in a humble (and sometimes humiliating) way, I gotta believe that he or she could get this and could be successful learning how to allow Hashem in to his life to dispel his lust and live sober one day at a time.

I am just very skeptical that more than a few would succeed at it, no matter how sincere they think they are. We are talking about addicts, here, after all, chaver. And foxes are not trustworthy guarding hen-houses, are they? Rationalization and lying are the byword of all addicts - and us frum addicts are the 'kings' and 'queens' of faykerai and pretending that appearances are everything.

So if you do not believe you are an addict and do not relate to real alcoholics when you meet and talk with them, then I suggest you look for the answer in Yiddishkeit. Hafoch ba, d'kula bah. But may Hashem save you from the rationalization and self-obsession that plagues us habitual schmutz users. Get a trusted friend, rav, parent, shrink, as Rav Elimelech writes in his Tzet'l koton (#13), and use him regularly and fearlessly.

Oy, vei...did I stray, or answer tzum zach for you?

Hm. If I understood you right, you wanted to say that, eyn hachi nami, thats not the only way, but stil the one one should take. right?

ps: shkoach for taking the time to answer.

No! That is not what I meant at all.

I meant that it is the path that some should take. If you are not an addict, but just really like the way that looking at porn and masturbating makes your body feel, then you may not be for SA meetings. "Teshuvah and Tahara" guys in meetings is not a good thing, I think. They water down the entire thing by bringing all their irrelevant issues in with them - they get triggered by the openness of others (and then blame SA for it!) - and they do not get sober anyhow cuz they really do not want to quit anyhow, they are just guilty!

So, no. It depends.

Do you think you may be an addict? Are you really ready to learn and try a way to somehow give up your drug? Or is it just guilt and a luxury to you?

It is easy to tell the guys who are not really ready - though they be very guilty - from the desperate addicts:

The addicts are ready to do anything to quit, while the religious ones are more concerned about their 'reputation' and 'privacy' than getting clean. For they see it as "a very bad middah" or "gehinnom and onesh for the terrible aveiro" - not like Cancer. Watch the way a religious guy acts when it is is c"v something 'real' like cancer...he is suddenly OK with using a goyishe doctor (if he is 'the best'), he is suddenly OK with openly admitting all his embarrassing stuff (like the bloody stools, vomiting, or fear of his death, and other things that are very pass-nisht), and he arranges his schedule INCLUDING SDORIM AND FAMILY TIME around his chemo sessions, etc.

The 'religious' one does not do any of those things. For him or her sobriety is a luxury - very commendable...but if he or she is an addict, that will not cut it at all.

So, it depends on what you really need. You cannot fake it, you cannot 'convince yourself that you need it', and speeches about accepting your powerlessness (which, if you notice, I do not ever make) will not work. Your own pain must convince you - or you will probably never believe it.

Hm. I am not sure where I am. by the addicted chevra or the "religious" guys.

Let me describe it.

Hm, hard to describe.

Let us put it like this. Af al pi that I like the whole process of falling and phantasies and so on, I know that that's NOT THE WAY I should take. I do NOT want to cut my kesher with riboyno shel oylom and and exterminate my relationship with him. Actually i want to be close to him.
And I do understand that mas*** is not keday (af al pi that yesh ika man deomar inside me who is mepakpek bedovor). And I dont want to receive the punishment. And I DO try to oylam habo and i try to learn in yeshiva as much as possible. So it makes no sence to me to do aveyros.
And one more important point. i want to marry one day. and I want to have a holy marriage and af al pi that everything inside me is burning and wants to make znus, I WANT A HOLY MARRIAGE. and i dont want my wife to suffer because of me. and i want have holy children. like our noshim tzidkaniyoys pray "vezakeyni legadel, bonim vekuley" you know how it ends. i wnt all this things. (sounds pretty selfish...i want i want i want...i know its a problem..i will have to work on that as well..just thats how i feel, wanted to be honest.)

but i still keep on falling. Do i want to fall`? NO
Its just. When the soto"n comes, He doesnt let me think/remember this things. and i dont remember haShem. the world shrinks to a small narrow room, where he wants me to fall, thats everything i can think off on that point.

so, what would you say, reb Dov? appears to me, that yesh veyesh. traits like this group and the other one.
r"t

Sorry for butting in, but maybe it could be both, like a little bit addiction that if you weren't a Jew could maybe be held under control but our expectations are higer so therefore it's an addiction because for the level we need you are addicted. Sort of like wer'e probably all addicted somehow to eating yummy food, I don't think we'd be able to start from tommorow to eat just pasta with nothing else fro the next year, but here it's worse because it's a big avaira and we can't stay addicted.

I used to think I was something like this because I'm mainly stuck in "simple" M and barely know what P is, and if I wasn't religioos I could simply continue on this way cause whats so terrible. Now I realize and feel how even what I am doing is destructive in itself before getting at all spirtual (it simply wastes away my life and hurts my marriage and everything), and if I wasn't frum it would quickly spiral downward to everything and more and then I would really be in trouble, and even what is stopping me isn't religion but the natural safeguards of our community.

That's just my 2 cents, I think it'll either be helpfull to you or it won't, one of these two options..

Your'e brother,

Chaim

bing,bing,bing,bing! you hit the naiol on the head.perfectly said!

i do thonk however that the frum way of life should be for ALL humans, because it makes u scomplete.i'm not saying everyone should convert, but if we kke pthem as given to us, we will be shalem.

jack

thats exactly my point . stil dont know how it should help me to go any further.


want to add one point. i think the majority had struggle each day. correct me if i am wrong, plz. I dont.
these 3 weeks i had nearly no fights what so ever.
but if it starts...it becomes very hard..

Dear RT,

I hear you, finally. Unfortunately, it is not as simple as you describe it. Chaza"l teach us that b'derech sh'odom rotzeh leolech, molichin oso. And Rav Twerski has used a great Peanuts cartoon to demonstrate that it is our actual behavior that proves what we want - not our 'intentions' and 'philosophy'. I have no desire to insult you or anyone, chaver - but sincerity is what is missing for you, not philosophy nor clarity. And that is NORMAL.

You are a teenager, no? Your age is probably part of it. No reason to be insulted about that, though, for it is not a put-down, but a simple fact. Most idealists are adolescents. It's your time for that.

So what am I saying here, really? That you are fooling yourself about what you really want? No way!

All I am saying is that I suggest your description of what you "really" want is not so simple and clear as you make it all sound. If it were as you describe it, then we'd have an enigma here, indeed. But we don't.

If you are an adolescent, then you are on the cusp of sincerity and integrity. This is your time for developing them - not possessing them. Some call this 'finding oneself'. Whatever.

So I hope you can be a bit more patient with yourself. Contrary to what you may have been told by kama v'kama sifrei mussar and well-meaning people, it does not sound to me like you are in the watershed moment of either growing into a Jack-the-ripper - else into a Rav Aryeh Levine zt"l. This is not what is in the balance. I would wager that you are experiencing something that is fairly typical for committed, serious adolescents of any religious faith, and of yiddishkeit in particular: you are struggling with the standards of what you see as a beautiful path in life. The flesh is strong sometimes, while the spirit may be weak. The mind sees big and beautiful things - while the body is what we really experience as reality. Yes, our penises make us feel things that we really like - and our gemoras make us feel other things we really like. That's it. It's not about addiction at all, but a simple human struggle for sincerity and integrity.

Integrity is not cheap.

I suggest shifting your focus from your yetzer hora or tahara....to all the rest of your avodah. There is so much here that encompasses a wide range of choices for integrity and sincerity that has nothing at all to do with your private parts!

For example (and R' Tzvi-Meyer Zilverberg loves to shoot off lists like this - read his stuff and hear his lectures, they are a lifesaver for this issue!): emunah in your self, emunah in Hashem, honesty and mesiras nefesh in ben odom lachaveiro, honesty to your fellow, happiness in mitzvos - and just in living, retzifus in learning, kavonah in davening, kavonah in eating, taking good care of and respecting your precious body, respecting others, making the body tofeil and the neshomah ikkar, being on time to sdorim and keeping your word, devotion to the needs of others, spreading joy, being a sweet pleasant person to those around you, yir'as Shomayim...etc.

And not a single one of those things need have any connection at all to zera levatola!! None.

And if for you they are all connected to sex, then I suggest that you have been influenced by religious lust, indulged too often in the haughty fantasy of perfect purity, and been a victim of the guilt monster.

We have all been there.

What do you say to that?

(And please do not tell me you are actually 35! ;D :o :-[ )

Intresant, Dov, thats kinda irony of the life, but I can mamash say the same. finally I understand the majority of what You've said. yo

well.
I am 23.


dont be afraid, I dont feel insulted and adraba, I [s] wanna ask [/s] am begging you to say the things, how they are.

but let me clarify some things (i understood the majority, not everything). What exactly do you mean saying that i am missing sincerity. you mean, to myself?



bichlal not, baruch haShem. adraba.


Could you explain this part ? not sure if i got the message of it.

and did i get it right, you dont think, i am an addict, right??


I say: thank You for taking the time and your wish to help me. i appreciate it.

I am saying that I cannot say if you are an addict - I do not believe anyone can. "Ein hadovor tolui ella bee," he said.

I believe taking the action we really need to really quit and get help to stay quit, is a matter of pain, not of frumkeit or goodness. Leiv nishbar v'nidkeh Elokim lo sivzeh does not refer to sadness, but broken self-will. Broken ego. The one who knows he does not know how to stop so he will not stop - even though he knows just as well that he cannot continue - he is definitely a leiv nishbar v'nidkeh.

And Hashem will help him if he takes real action. Real action is not necessarily this or that, but there are plenty who can share with you what really works for them - so we have a forum. Ask people who are clean exactly what actions were real enough for them that they are working for them. Simple, no?

PS. I'll be off the forum in a day or so until the beginning of September..so will miss this forum till then!
Adios Amigos!!