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A platform of recovery for Jews who find themselves struggling with addictions to pornography, masturbation or other sexual problems. Post anonymously about your struggles without fear of anyone finding out who you are. Ask questions, post answers and be inspired! Get tips and guidance from the experts who moderate this forum, as well as from fellow strugglers.

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TOPIC: To bochurim! 942 Views

To bochurim! 25 Jun 2012 05:59 #140085

obormottel
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We often get here boys who are 14, 15, 16 year old. For the most part I am not happy that they get exposed to this forum (though I realize they may have seen worse things). In addition to potential exposure to predators, I think that Internet Addiction forum is probably an overkill for a masturbation habit and an occasional dirty picture.
While it is up to the webmaster to figure out how to separate this demographic (for example) and direct them to an appropriate resource, I think that the visiting bochurim should get the following by Rabbeinu Guard as a standard greeting. In fact, I think they should teach this in school. There has to be a way I can show this to my adolescent son.

guardureyes wrote on 24 Jun 2012 22:01:

Dear Bochur,

See our "First Time Here" page for 10 suggestions to help you get started on your journey to recovery.

Every situation Hashem puts a person into can be used as an opportunity for growth. You are fortunate that you are willing to work on your problem at such a young age. The earlier one learns control in this area, the easier it will be to stop. The longer you wait, the harder it will be to stop. Although this is a tremendous nisayon that many people are falling into today, it is very dangerous and it can spiral out of control and do a lot of damage in this world and the next, chas veshalom. These behaviors are very addictive, and an addiction is a disease that only gets worse. If a person doesn't work on this, it can also damage their future marriage chas veshalom. It is causing many people to get divorced today.

Here is something very important for you to know. Chazal say: "There is a small organ in a man, if you feed it - it is hungry, if you starve it - it is satiated". Basically, what that means is the Less you Feed It, the Less you Need It.

Hashem created many things, which all have a purpose. Each creation is made out of different parts, and each part has its particular purpose too. Hashem also created the human being. We also have different body parts with different functions. So too the genital area has also its purpose (to urinate) but it also has a different purpose, which we are told in the Torah comes into function after marriage. The shulchan aruch tells us exactly how it works, and when you get older and especially when you get married you learn exactly how and when to use them in a tsniusdikke and Torah way so we stay holy and pure always. If you start using these parts before marriage you will not know how to use them and you will make mistakes and therefore do things that will harm your body and your neshomo. That is why Hashem told us not to do anything in this area until marriage, and tsnius helps us to achieve this purpose. Unfortunately goyim don’t have the Torah and that is why many of them don’t know how to use these parts of their body and they do it very often in an untsniusdike way. Unfortunately sometimes (frum) Jewish people learn from the goyim. That is one of the main reasons why so many goyim divorce, although there are other reasons as well. It all has to do with knowing about marriage and understanding all parts of your body and how to use them. Once you get married, you will know how to use every part of our body in a tsniusdikke Torah way, exactly like Hashem wants us to. And then you won't have anything to hide, you will always feel tsniusdik and know that you are doing the right thing and have nothing to be ashamed of.

Your parents will understand if you tell them that you once saw some things on the computer that you shouldn't have seen, and now you feel a nisayon and you think it's important they should put on a filter.

See also this page: http://www.guardureyes.com/GUE/FAQ/FAQ2.asp

Be brave and show your parents this page: Why I need a Filter

They will be proud of you for telling them what bothers you, and about your tests. Everyone understands what a big test this is today, and your parents will want to help you in any way they can.

See this page also, for chizuk on stopping shichvas zera: http://www.guardureyes.com/GUE/FAQ/FAQ1.asp

Download the "Guard Your Eyes Handbook" for detailed hadracha on how to break free of this addiction. It has 20 tools in progressive order - as well as 30 attitude and perspective principles. If you want to break free, you will find all the information you need in this handbook. (You can also read it online here).

Be strong, Hashem is with you!

Baby steps.
If the road is pulling you down, it's a sign that you are going uphill, so just press harder on the gas!

Have a great day - unless, of course, you made other plans.

Re: To bochurim! 25 Jun 2012 06:03 #140086

obormottel OFFLINE Platinum Boarder Posts: 1440 Karma: 6	So I guess the point of discussion I'd like to have is whether you guys think it's a good idea for teenagers to mingle with us perverts. And what do you say about Guard's write-up? Do you wish he was your son's Rebbi? Mottel P.S. The forum is slow and quiet lately. Is it the summer or is everyone cured?
	Baby steps. If the road is pulling you down, it's a sign that you are going uphill, so just press harder on the gas! Have a great day - unless, of course, you made other plans.

Re: To bochurim! 25 Jun 2012 12:38 #140091

jewish jew
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Mottel I agree with you that most Bochurim do not need this site, but I am not sure what can you do as there are exceptions and you can't know the difference to tell them that this site is for you or not!

By the way I would show Guards letter to a bochur in his 14-15 first time even if you are sure that he has no clue about sex, porn, masturbation etc. But to a child in school I would explain that it is bad and you are not allowed etc. but without the part that after marriage it will come to use etc.

JJ

The opposite of addiction is not sobriety, it’s connection

Re: To bochurim! 25 Jun 2012 15:25 #140101

Machshovo Tova OFFLINE Platinum Boarder Posts: 1230 Karma: 26	I haven't been in the subway for a while (B"H), but I remember the following sign: Little enough to ride for free? Little enough to ride your knee. Same here: Big enough for Por*****phy? Big enough for GYE. MT

Re: To bochurim! 25 Jun 2012 15:42 #140104

ZemirosShabbos
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pass the compote
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MT, i like that line: big enough for pornography, big enough for GYE

it still needs to be determined how much exposure is needed to qualify.
Is a one-time viewing enough?
or do they need to be boki bechol ha'inyan ch'v in order to qualify?

i think everyone would agree that bochurim need individual attention. every bochur is his own world and we cannot make blanket rules across the board. what is suitable for one can be detrimental to another.
as they say on medical advice forums "don't use an anonymous internet forum as a replacement for your doctor"
similarly, we need to be parents and we need to keep an eye on our children and gauge each one individually.
in my hopefully-humble opinion

Sometimes life is like tuna with not enough mayonaise
~Inna beshem ZS

Give, Forgive
~Cordnoy

The reason I'm acting as if I'm pregnant, is because I'm expecting. I should be accepting.
~TZ

Re: To bochurim! 25 Jun 2012 19:27 #140141

obormottel
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In most cases of kids viewing inappropriate material the prescription needed is a good spanking. Then you give him a ball and send him out to play. Instead they come here, which means they are still hanging on the internet, they are still isolated from their peers, and now they think they are addicted and need serious intervention to stop this behavior.
All teenagers masturbate, it's not called chatas neurim 'cause we ran out of other terms. And all children who are coming of age are curious about sex, and all will look at pictures and videos of sex if they can do it discreetly.
Of course there are exceptions, but rubo d'rubo they are doing it out of innocent curiosity, and because it makes them feel good.
Yes, all addicts I know started off at the very young age, but to say that anyone who mastrubates and looks at dirty pictures is an addict, or will become an addict, is a long stretch, and is probably not true.
So someone comes here and says a profundity like "I'm 14 and I've been addicted to this stuff for two years", it makes me laugh and cry at the same time. And we are not doing this child any favors by telling him stuff like "you can beat this addiction, you have to be willing to admit you're powerless over this stuff, start working the program etc".
And this kid is not benefitted by reading about my compulsions and the crazyness that goes on in my head. If anything, it poisons him and distorts an idea of healthy sexuality.
That's why Guard's line about "after marriage you will know the correct use of all your body parts" is so precious. Because that's exactly what they need to hear:
Don't worry about it, go play ball, soon enough you'll know what to do with these newfound sensations and urges.
Instead we feed them more petrifying stuff, "you're powerless over lust, it will kill you if you don't stop now, you're destroying your soul, you will never be able to get married if you masturbate between now and the night after the chupa".
I bet that the best-meaning, best-behaved, and least-corrupted teenage boy will stimulate himself to the point of orgasm and ejaculation some time during his teens.
Big deal, really. Sforim Hakdoishim are full of eitzois on doing tshuvo for chatas neurim. They are written by people who are not oblivious to human nature, but know exactly the stages of development of a man, and realize that there is proper time for everything, including an occasional and innocent self-pleasuring.
But putting so much negative attention on this issue, and telling a kid "you can never stop on your own, 'cause you're addicted now and you're a lost cause" is sure to do more damage than good.
So it's a cute line "old enough for porn, old enough for GYE", but it's a wrong prescription. And please don't come back with exceptions, of course there are exceptions, just like there are a few 14 year-olds who are alcoholics, but it's madness to call every kid who drinks wine for kiddush an alkie.
Therefore, my point stands:
I wish we qualified all teens that visit us before piling up our well-meaning but ill-advised support. And I wish that Guard's piece was a required reading for every teenager, whether they have already discovered the joys of mastrubation or not.

Baby steps.
If the road is pulling you down, it's a sign that you are going uphill, so just press harder on the gas!

Have a great day - unless, of course, you made other plans.

Re: To bochurim! 26 Jun 2012 01:13 #140214

E-Tek Current streak: 25 days OFFLINE Gold Boarder Posts: 317 Karma: 1	Please retitle "To younger bochurim". There's no doubt I need this place. Yes, it would be nice if the bochurim didn't come here so young. I apreciated that piece when Reb Guard first wrote it. But what to do? I don't know...

Re: To bochurim! 26 Jun 2012 03:41 #140233

Dov
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What about using the term, "habit-forming" instead of "addiction" or "addictive"? Rav Twerski may feel differently about it, but I feel like Obber said, that introducing these kids to addiction at this point is like hitting a mosquito on your table using a sledge-hammer. You will get the mosquito - but will also break your table. (Now neither of you will eat dinner!

)

Yes, one reason I was afraid to start smoking as a youngster was because i thought it's be a habit I'd start and end up like all those others, stuck to it. Yechh. But sexuality is so complicated. Maybe we can be gentler with our kids than scare the mei raglayim out of them with "addiction"?

Just a thought, from an imperfect parent.

"Off the 18-wheeler and fine on this tricycle!", "I do not particularly care exactly which "lav" suicide is. I'm not interested in it for other reasons...and you are probably the same."

Re: To bochurim! 05 Jul 2012 22:25 #140970

Teshuva Mahavah
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אם אין אני לי מי לי וכשאני לעצמי מה אני
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as has been pointed out all teenagers struggle with this and that it is natural yet this natural struggle is also the beginning of an addiction (even if it doesnt go that far in the majority of cases) and as such i think that bochurim should be exposed to the forum to realize where this can go to even if things should be said diferently by stressing the fact that they arent addicts yet (which they will realize after time even if it is said to them that way)

במקום שבעלי תשובה עומדים אפילו צדיקים גמורים אינם עומדים

Re: To bochurim! 06 Jul 2012 00:10 #140978

Kevin Pond Current streak: 116 days OFFLINE Expert Boarder Posts: 120 Karma: 0	I agree with you, Obormottel. This is no place for bochurim who are BH not 'there' yet. It is bad enough that these forums contain a mixture of hard-core addicts and "just lustful" adults (many of the problems that you mentioned about bochurim's invlovement apply to adults who are less addicted as well) Yours truly!

Re: To bochurim! 09 Jul 2012 03:58 #141094

justkeepgoing OFFLINE Gold Boarder Posts: 291 Karma: 2	How could anyone here judge whether a young teen is addicted and needs help before he posts. Until he posts you don't know where he's holding and after he posts it might be overkill. (Read: "he"=young teen) so maybe a solution would be educating him to the point where he would understand where he stands and could judge for himself if he needs the forum.

Re: To bochurim! 17 Jul 2012 23:56 #141866

Dov
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I can guarantee to you that only an extreme minority of the teenagers who masturbate regularly are addicts, frum, Jewish, or not.

And surely only a minority of adults who enjoy porn and masturbate are addicts.

Granted, among the frum, that number is probably greater, but still it cannot possibly be a majority.

Though he may experience intense physical pleasure through it (because he has a brain and a penis), the addict is the one who does not enjoy pornography and is horrified with masturbating himself - but still cannot bring himself to stop.

The multi-billion dollar porn and soft-core porn industry is certainly not paid for mostly by the addicts of the world! It's the normal, desiring public of the world that merely has a yetzer hora and loves that stuff. "Sex sells" is the mottto for the general public - not just for addicts, you know. By the same token, the overwhelming majority of Chaza"ls and sifrei mussar that refer to struggling against the normal human desire for sex and lust could not possibly be referring specifically to addicts!

Practically everybody - especially males - know about "falling". Very, very few people would be able to make heads or tails of half of what was being spoken of in an AA, NA, or SA meeting. Cuz they are not sick!

The overwhelming majority of sex and lust addicts I know are not frum Jews, but gentiles. Sure, I know over a hundred chassidisheh and yeshivisheh yidden who are sex and lust addicts (and b"H in recovery)...but the majority of recovering people in SA, for example, are not frum Jews at all. They know the pain of out-of-control sexual acting out. This has nothing at all to do with being frum or even Jewish. It is about hating the feeling of losing. Of being a beheimoh. No human likes that feeling for long. It can be fun, for a while...but it gets very tiring and loathsome. Eventually unbearable. So people recover, be"H.

A young teen. I feel that he needs a good, frum role model to be honest with and to lean on. And he should know that most rabbonim and mechanchim who he speaks to have masturbated themselves at least once. Not all, maybe, but most. It is just a fact today. And that does not make them sick. It makes them human and imperfect. Just like this teenager is.

As long as the rov/rebbi being leaned on shows himself as 'the perfect one', their usefulness is dubious at best. And I am not referring here to kids who are addicts, at all.

This is very difficult subject. Pardon me for any oversimplification.

Did that help anything?

"Off the 18-wheeler and fine on this tricycle!", "I do not particularly care exactly which "lav" suicide is. I'm not interested in it for other reasons...and you are probably the same."

Re: To bochurim! 18 Jul 2012 03:46 #141882

justkeepgoing
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"A young teen. I feel that he needs a good, frum role model to be honest with and to lean on. And he should know that most rabbonim and mechanchim who he speaks to have masturbated themselves at least once. Not all, maybe, but most. It is just a fact today. And that does not make them sick. It makes them human and imperfect. Just like this teenager is.

As long as the rov/rebbi being leaned on shows himself as 'the perfect one', their usefulness is dubious at best. And I am not referring here to kids who are addicts, at all. "

I agree that role models are needed and I especially enjoyed the second point, my only concern is that it would cause the kid to look down at his teacher, OR placate his consious and be a petach to continue.
I don't particularly enjoy it either when we say "you'll probably do it again" to a kid. Because at least for me (maybe my thinking is twisted more than normal or this could be a really deep psycological insight) I would feel like "its ok" "don't worry about it" heck I STILL feel like that when I see posts that de-emphasize the severity of a fall which is why (again maybe only for myself) the severity of a fall and its repurcussions need to be reinforced. So to tell a kid "your probably going to do it again (chatas nearim don't worry its cool) ein "de-emphasizing gedola mi'zoo!

Another point, I had to fall really hard many times, and after a long "streak" before I was driven to post here. Before that I was still operating under "its cool just gotta sort out this little "thingie/thingamajig/glitch" mode. My point being for a kid to even BE on this forum says a lot about his situation. Unless again, I'm the exception, and really everyone just joins a "internet addiction forum" because they have a strong yetzer.

So maybe educating the people that are signing up about the different levels of addiction and whether for there situation the forum is even necessary could be helpful. (Like the Handbook in the beggining its has the outline by which one can estimate where he stands in this "thingamajig")

Also R' Dov thank you for your concise definition of an addict.

Re: To bochurim! 30 Jul 2012 02:35 #142606

Dov NOW ONLINE Administrator Posts: 1960 Karma: 383	The word 'concise' is not in my lexicon...
	"Off the 18-wheeler and fine on this tricycle!", "I do not particularly care exactly which "lav" suicide is. I'm not interested in it for other reasons...and you are probably the same."

Re: To bochurim! 30 Jul 2012 03:17 #142611

justkeepgoing OFFLINE Gold Boarder Posts: 291 Karma: 2	Until I googled it, "Lexicon" wasnt in my lexicon either :D I was referring to this: the addict is the one who does not enjoy pornography and is horrified with masturbating himself - but still cannot bring himself to stop.