When the alter of Kelm or Slobodka was too old to go to beis Midrash, he would sometimes sit at his window and mumble. A talmid asked him what he was doing...b'al peh mishnayos? Zohar? He answered that he was too weak to learn, so he was sitting here and seeing the people walk by and blessing them. He obviously saw the basic place of a person (himself) to be a source of brocah to the briyos.

(My point is not that he intentionally looked at women. He probably didn't. And the women in his area probably dressed a lot more appropriate than anyone does now, anyhow...)

The incredibly central Tanna Rabi Yochanan would do same, but at the mikvah, according to the gemorah...and he said that the women to him were "like geese".

(Again, please do not get distracted to the female issue. That is a totally side point! He was a tanna - we probably will never understand his mentality and madreigah...and he was not an addict - so he probably would not understand us, either. Rather, the point is again that when he was unable to sit and learn, he saw his duty to go where he would become a blessing for other people.)

So are you saying that I'm old?! >

that's pretty good for totally misconstruing what you wrote, huh?
:D

_{or to quote archie bunker: "misconscrewing"}
WHATEVAH!!!!

Gesher wrote on 05 Jul 2012 21:28:

Now that shows you are old!!

Alas, I remember it well and loved that line of his.

I cannot say A B without adding "Yemach shemo vezichro!" The small amount of exposure I had to those comics was very triggering for me when I was a bochur. > > >

Comics?

I recently saw the heading of this thread and read a bit. When I walk in the streets I feel it so much, my eyes are so out of control. I'm so weak, it's scary. It's so hard for me, every day clean is a gift from Hashem, on my own I whould be like the guy in the beggining of the SA White book.

hey charlie!
welcome to thread!
thanks for your input!

so here's the latest...
dov, your idea has been extremely helpful
I'm still blessing everything in sight
it has succesfully turned everyone (and I mean everyone!) into people.
after a phone conversation with another member
who intended to share with me
but it ended up being mutually beneficial
I came to another realisation
there is a clear difference between the people on the street
and the people at work
the latter is much more difficult
and requires a different approach
what works for me is
(as i mentioned in a previous post)
reframing for myself their intent (or lack thereof)
and their interest (or lack thereof)
alas,
the real problem....
my eyes are still looking for trouble
in any shape manner or form!
and older (over 60) lady wearing a semi see thru shirt?
why does that interest me?
my eyes automatically look to see if i can see something
WWWWWWWWWWWHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

2 corrections tothe previous post
1) the last line was supposed to be a string of question marks
which were automatically turned into emoticons
2) more importantly
the real realization that I menat to get across was
a clearer understanding of the concept of hating the addiction
instead of enjoying the act of sneaking looks
I made the following statement
and I really meant it!
When I look at women thinking that there is something to fantasize about
it causes me to walk around with a tension of holding back
which leads to the feeling that releasing is the only thing that can relieve that tension
which makes me miserable!
and I hate that feeling!
so I have to nip it in the bud
by not even going there.
Don't even start the process
and for that dov your advice has helped tremendously.
as does the other idea that i mentioned in the previous post.
did that make sense?

Gesher wrote on 11 Jul 2012 21:50:


Poor you.

Please do not take this the wrong way, but may I ask what gives you the idea that you deserve to be perfect? To be free of male tendencies? To be free of your years of training to check put a woman's chest first, before remembering that there are other parts to also check out - and then remembering that there is a human being there? I am serious.

This business about "Gevalt! I still notice womens' bodies!! Gevalt!" - is just plain nahrishkeit, sorry. And childish. And it probably is the one thing that pulls many back into the abyss of lusting all over again by causing pointless guilt over nothing and distraction from our real tachlis in avodas Hashem - to be as good as we can and to do His Will. Instead, we try to "BE ZUSIA" - even though we are not Zusias. We are Chaims, Yichoels, Yaakovs, Chunas, Shloimos, Moshes, etc. We will be sober, clean, free of lust, whatever you want to call it - but if your goal is to be "kadosh" and you define "kadosh" as 'having no testicles left'...then I guess we lose the game.

Is that what Hashem wants? How do you know? Are you basing it on your last reading of Reishis Chochma or the ShL"oH haKadosh? Then I suggest you move back into the 1500s when they lived. And I bet even then it was only yechidei segulah who achieved 'asexuality at will'...if that is a mailoh, at all. The sheer gayvoh of me assuming that for myself is astounding, I think. May Tatteh save me and all of us from it.

It's so much easier to aim for something we are not, isn't it? For the job will certainly never be done - it can't be done. It is picking an impossible goal to fail at (without suspense), rather than risking being our limited, imperfect selves and looking really not good enough in the end even though we could have achieved it...

So go easy on yourself, in a manner of speaking. Let go of the gayvoh and accept your limitations. Not to lust - but to notice breasts. They are there, we notice them, and it's OK. What we do after we notice them is the only thing that matters!

WOW! Dov, you are amazing!
I appreciate the clarity.
you're 100% right!

Nu. Halevai the 'klapping al cheit crowd' would hear it as you and I do. Nu. Everybody hears what they need, to, I guess...

Thanks, I really liked that. The mesilas yesharim also describes kedusha as when even the gashmius is holy like a korban - no mention of abandoning our gashmius but the oppsite making it good.
Thank you doc.

Gesher wrote on 11 Jul 2012 21:50:

Why indeed, why indeed? :

ChaimCharlie wrote on 02 Aug 2012 15:20:


But he says that the way to get there is by first going through the steps of abandoning it.

MT

Abandoning it is the only way to get anywhere.

And if we are not succeeding at doing that, then there is something we have yet to learn about how to do that...I learned that from recovering perverts like me, b"H, and am growing in it still.

And specifically to ChaimCharlies last post: I wager that if you asked the RMCh"L today about reaching the state he refers to as "Kedusha", I think he'd say that practically nobody in this generation is likely to reach it at all - least of all one of us former secret professional masturbaters and porn users. A little cold water is a good thing sometimes, I think, especially for me. Humility is the best way to avoid future humiliation when I put on britches a few sizes too big for me, you know. So consider looking at spiritual accomplishments that are nearer to the ground we are laying on. Hey, in Messilas Yeshorim's order that might be called "Anivus"...which is a few steps before Kedushah!

Baby steps.