All this is nice, but I really want to say something weird about it...that you will find is not that weird after all:

Honesty is essential - but here on the forum I would not describe exactly what kind of porn I kept looking for or what ointments or techniques I liked so much to use for masturbating myself. The forum has all kinds of people on it, many of whom would surely be damaged by graphic descriptions of these things - and some who would not.

In the same way, Torah is essential - but here on the forum I'd reconsider sharing some things particularly mekubalim taught us, for there are all kinds of people reading this forum. Surely some will be damaged by reading these things. We know enough people who take this stuff and create giant guilt farms that feed their self-obsession and insanity for years.

I love R' Chayim and his Rebbe, zy"a, and I trust Rabbi Fish is as "shlit'a" as you say he is...but the audience matters. All the mekubalim will tell you not to teach kabolah to talmid that is not hagun, for it will damage him (see sefer Yesod Yosef where he explains that one cause for wet dreams is learning sisrei Torah when a person ought not to for various reasons he lists, so the light escapes that way...maybe not for this forum, either! ).

Dov, I respect your opinion about this, but what makes this any different than anything else, torahdik, shared on the forum. Anyone can take anything and turn it into whatever he wants. I'm not particularly espousing kabbalah, just shared something that i heard on the radio that I felt was relevant and had an impact on me.
Is that against the forum rules?

Gevalt no! It's fine I am sure as far as the forum is concerned (and I do not feel that I speak for the forum any more than you do).

And I agre, yes anything Torah-dik can be twisted into poison. The gemorah says "lemasm'ilim bah, haTorah na'aseis sam hamovess" - meaning "Torah destroys and poisons when it is used (improperly) by those who learn it improperly...the expression used in "mas'm'ilim bah" - who go to the left with it.

Warning - drosho approaching: The derech of Beis Shamai (and women, too, for that matter) is toward the left, or Din/Gevurah. It is davka shayach to y'mos hamoshiach, and not to this present world. Sforim say that till then, we pasken like Beis Hillel even though Beis Shamai was 'mechudad' - sharper - than BH (and 'sharper' is a hint at Din, too, apparently). So survival in this world (see first Rashi's in Bereishis) is dependent on inclusion of Chessed - Beis Hillel's approach for the time being.

Many of the Kabolisheh references about how many children and grandchildren one murdered by wasting his sperm; how the cows will stomp on our faces for shaving our beards or even trimming our moustaches; or how unforgivable and permanently damaging ceetain aveiros, words, or attitudes are...are true. But they are still poison and as horrible as paskening like Beis Shamai in this world. The Gemorah in Brachos says that R' Tarfon who wanted to be yotzei like Beis Shammai so he reclined to read Sh'ma at night - deserved to be waylayed by robbers! Apparently Beis Shammai's approach really has no place in this world, for now...

Apply this as you'd like, but no insult is meant - I just want to say that there is a time and a place for things, and that some things are more risky than others. The 5th chelek of shulchan aruch is the most important one, and especially for addicts. So maybe GYE should have a warning: "ENTERING OVERACTIVE GUILT, SELF-CONDEMNATION AND RATIONALIZATION OF SPIRITUAL PERFECTIONISM ZONE - HANDLE WITH CARE"

And in my own way, I have probably been one of the worst offenders over the past few years. So I am sharing, not pointing any fingers at you.

End of drosha.

Still friends? 8)

dov wrote on 03 Jul 2012 16:55:


It's an honor for me to be considered your friend.

As long as I have your attention dov,
I am faced with a situation where I have to participate in a lecture given by a lady who is not dressed appropriately. To be honest, it doesnt get me excited. but the bottom line is that i am stuck looking at her constantly. Not looking is not an option, as this is an interactive lecture.
I surrender or whatever you guys say!
But what does that really mean?
Like I said I'm not excited by looking and it isnt causing me any masturbation urges etc...
but it's still a problem.
I guess my question is: How do you look at a women without noticing the things that you shouldnt notice?

i see people have offered some nice ideas.
another idea from the rosy fields of CBT in addiction counseling is to do as follows:

ask yourself: how much of my looking is due to my stress of obsessing about not looking?

next, ask yourself: why do i look? is it because i am attracted to women?

if you answered yes to the above question, then ask yourself: isn't it normal to have such a drive? don't other men also do this, or:aren't other men at least tempted to do this? or:isn't this exactly why God commanded the Jewish people not to look after their eyes....because he designed them to have such desires?

now, you may say: it is true, men want to look, and i want to look, but my looking is compulsive, and their's is just out of "tayva", or you may say "they look here and there, but i myself cannot stop!"

these things may be true. but you no longer need to obsess so much about how you are looking. meaning, wanting to look is quite normal. the problem in your case is that you obsess about it, or act on it.

so the punchline is: ACCEPT the desire to look as normal. Next, accept your compulsitivity as God's plan for you to work on it and grow. finally, make sure never to act upon a look, or to elongate a look as much as possible.
ACCEPTANCE of our defect or struggle is a huge key here to lowering our stress about looking, and it only drives us to look more and more. loweringthat stress through acceptance makes it alot easier to deal with.

so the next time a desire to look comes, accept it. and decide also not to act on it. by doing so, it helps us to escape 12 hours a day of preoccupation about our problem, and helps us deal better with the problem and the here and now.

i know people who have tried this acceptance and reduced their stress about looking signifacantly.
AC9

Shameless self-promotion, which I think fits well with the couple of latest posts on this thread:
www.guardyoureyes.org/forum/index.php?topic=5486.0

A lot like addictioncounselor999 wrote, but from the perspective I accepted from my sponsor that works for me just fine, be"H:

The question I wanted to ask as soon as I read your post was: I believe you when you say that you are not lusting because of your relationship with this woman. But then what is the actual problem you are referring to when you blandly say
Gesher wrote on 03 Jul 2012 20:45:

When you write

I am guessing that you are just dissapointed about the fact that you find yourself paying attention to the fact that she has breasts, a pretty face, or other things. Is that what you mean?

So again, I want to ask: exactly what is actually bothering you?

Does it just feel unsafe? Wrong? Assur? Are you wanting to be on a higher madreigah? Do you imagine that when Rav Elyashiv speaks to an attractive woman for a halocha shayloh he does not even realize that she has breasts or a pretty face - and you do, so you find that repulsive and demeaning about you?

If it is the latter - and please give it a few seconds' thought - then I suggest that we have come to the point.

If Rav Elyashiv doesn't notice her sexuality it certainly is not because he is oblivious. It certainly is not because he is in staunch denial of femininity. I would wager it is because when he speaks to a woman, he sees a woman rather than a potential toy. After whatever screws we were born loose with, and after much deep emotional, psychological, and neurological involvement in our sweet, sweet pornography...how do we humbly expect that we would treat women who are even slightly attractive, as anything but potential sex toys? C'mon.

Normal men have desires, lusts, hormones, and even genitals...and many normal men have masturbated a few times...but they do have the capacity to view women as women. Fellow human beings with different sexual character and type.

If you are a porn and fantasy addict, then I'd like to suggest that you probably are not like normal men in that respect. The normals are not 'tzaddikim' - plenty are (R"l) resho'im, actually, and by the same token I and other sex and lust addicts are not 'resho'im', either - plenty of us are probably tzaddikim, in some sense. Morality has little to do with addiction. It's manily about sanity. There is something nuts - just plain nuts - about identifying women as a sexual thing. And I have that problem.

Acceptance is the key here, not knowledge. I am not giving you a 'speech'. This is my problem, and may not be yours. I am trying to use G-d through recovery, I am sober one day at a time, and He is helping me get well one day at a time, too.

So. Pray for this woman. Humbly and sincerely ask Hashem to help her in all the troubles in her life. If she is human (and she is) she has serious troubles of some sort just as we do. Maybe health troubles, maybe a child of hers or a parent is ill, maybe she doesn't yet know that she has cancer, R"l. Daven for her health. Ask Him to help her find a simple and real relationship with Him - isn't that what you want for your own children more than anything else in the world? Ask Him to help you be a blessing to her and to all the people you come into contact with. I daven this way in the middle of Sh'moneh Esrei, explicitly. I am speaking to G-d, He knows it all anyhow, right? With Him of course there is no need to use 'lashon nakiah' - He is not squeamish!!

It might sound not tsniyusdik, but the fact is that you have a relationship with this woman. It's not a sexual one, not a physical one, not even a personal one...but an educational one. It is a relationship. The way I see it, you can either pretend it is not there - and call that 'tzniyus' (I call it foolishness) - or you can accept Hashem's Will and work with Him. Hashem is putting her into your life and you into her life in some small - very small - way. And He does everything for a reason. So now what to do?

Daven for her is one thing. Respect her is another: do not use her image for your self-pleasuring. That is not respect. Even if she does not dress tziyusdik - using her image because of that is the excuse frum men always like to use. It's a lie and a cheap, dirty excuse for visual pillaging - first put them down as immoral sluts, then enjoy them like crazy, then blame them for it! Yipee.

You are not like that, I know. So I suggest going in the diametrically opposite direction - and daven for them me'umka deliba. It is impossible to lust after someone we have a properly loving relationship with. This is part of the reason that the chachomim allowed yichud with one's sister or mother. Real love and real lust do not go together - even in marriage. When a kli is busy being poleit (giving=love) it is not being boleiyah (taking=lust). So daven for her, and learn how to care for strangers instead of lusting over them.

And do not be afraid to use her right name - if she is a real person, she has a real name....not a "username" (boy that was punny! )

Second, if you are married, then let your wife know about this lecture you go to and that a woman speaks there - no big stink. Just share the facts with her. No need to tell her that you are "worried about noticing her prettiness or whatever" - but just let her know you attend a lecture given by this woman. Later, let your wife know how much you love her, just stam.

The idea here is to grow more like the Gadol hador, Rav Elyashiv. To see and view women as human beings - women. Not mainly as people who have breasts and such.

BTW, just because of the username, here is something I've never shared here - if it's of any use to anyone, great, and if not, enjoy just moving on :

I have met a few sex addicts who come to recovery themselves, after years working quite successfully as professional addictions counselors, and want to just share from the field that it seems that the ones who decide to work the 12 steps usually have a harder time actually working the steps than many other people do. Sometimes it is just too much education - so they assume that tons of knowledge makes acceptance easier...and it doesn't. Sometimes it is just plain lack of humility, because after all, plenty guys - maybe even their sponsor! - could be their clients....but that's irrelevant. And sometimes it is because they just don't attend meetings - opting for the "Home Study Course" and not coming to real meetings - and not getting a real flesh-and-blood sponsor if they do come to meetings - because of the fear of losing their jobs or their reputation...nu. That's gotta be tough and I am glad I don't have that obstacle.

obormottel wrote on 04 Jul 2012 17:55:
A Classic!

dov, thank you for your guidance.
I'm still trying to digest it.
I read it at least 3 times before i tried to respond
I dont know where to start
you are so very right
I have 30+ years of habitual seeing women as sex objects
that my automatic response to them is just that.
I guess you're right, I'm having a hard time seeing them as people
(I use people because in my sick mind the word woman have other conotations)
yes Im a fantasy addict (i never heard that phrase before but if the shoe fits wear it)
BH its been broken and stopped for over a year now
but it constantly rears its ugly head
and that's exactly it
I want to be able to see people as people
I've been working on it
as people pass by I say to myself
she isnt dressed that way for you
she's comfortable that way
she's not trying to be provacative
it's just normal dress for her
but my mind has other tendencies
and the natural response for me is to see the exciting things
that the world of movies and TV have told us are normal to look for
(btw i just saw an article in a newspaper entitled "the art of looking at women"
he says only low lives gawk, we do it discreetly and have it down to an art form-
he's a low life!
and by association, so am I. unless I can break this!)
so you hit the nail on the head
i want to see this lecturer as a person
but my eyes are looking for something else
thank you for helping me to "see" that.

:
so I'm going to daven for her
and daven that




and that's going to do it?
i feel like Im missing something
(I mean besides a brain)
???
I guess it's the idea of really caring for someone the way you are describing
it's an inyan of ahavas yisrael
that would explain how someone like Rav Elyashiv shlit"a (that's not a kichsa word, right?)
could see beyond the physical
so I've got to work on my ahavas yisrael.
boy! I would have never thought that that would be an outcome of this whole process
Am I on the right track? or am i still missing something?

Trust me, you don;t have to be plotzing in outpouring of ecstatic loving kindness to her...just practice normal, respectful concern for another real person. Relax, daven, take the actions and the feelings will come. Its actions far more than 'changing' our feelings. That's all.

Reeeelaaax.....eeeeettttsssssoooooookayyyyyyy.....

8)

I also read your post.
"When he speaks to a woman, he sees a woman rather than a potential toy." What a great line to remember. What a great way to live: When I see a woman, I see a woman rather than a potential sex toy."
First put them down as immoral sluts, then enjoy them like crazy, then blame them for it! Yipee."

Thank you, Dov.

Wow, thanks...really.

Have a nice day!

thank you dov et al
the lecture went well
but even better while driving around town
I blessed every person i saw
male and female
(just blessing the ladies seemed to be conterproductive)
it really made a difference!

Gesher wrote on 05 Jul 2012 18:02:


Like the Lubavitcher Rebbe zt"l - he used to distribute dollars every Sunday to hundreds of men and women and would bless each of them.

Interestingly, the beauty queen of Israel once came to him. She also got a dollar (maybe two) and a blessing - plus the following piece of advice:
שקר החן והבל היופי, אשה יראת ה' היא תתהלל

MT