A lot like
addictioncounselor999 wrote, but from the perspective I accepted from my sponsor that works for me just fine, be"H:
The question I wanted to ask as soon as I read your post was: I believe you when you say that you are not lusting because of your relationship with this woman. But then
what is the actual problem you are referring to when you blandly say
Gesher wrote on 03 Jul 2012 20:45:
Like I said I'm not excited by looking and it isnt causing me any masturbation urges etc...
but it's still a problem.
When you write
I guess my question is: How do you look at a women without noticing the things that you shouldnt notice?
I am guessing that you are just
dissapointed about the fact that you find yourself paying attention to the fact that she has breasts, a pretty face, or other things. Is
that what you mean?
So again, I want to ask: exactly what is actually bothering you?
Does it just feel unsafe? Wrong? Assur? Are you wanting to be on a higher madreigah? Do you imagine that when Rav Elyashiv speaks to an attractive woman for a halocha shayloh he does not even
realize that she has breasts or a pretty face - and you do, so you find that repulsive and demeaning about you?
If it is the latter - and please give it a few seconds' thought - then I suggest that we have come to the point.
If Rav Elyashiv doesn't notice her sexuality it certainly is not because he is
oblivious. It certainly is not because he is in staunch
denial of femininity. I would wager it is because when he speaks to a woman,
he sees a woman rather than a
potential toy. After whatever screws we were born loose with, and after much deep emotional, psychological, and neurological involvement in our sweet, sweet pornography...how do we humbly expect that we would treat women who are even slightly attractive, as anything
but potential sex toys? C'mon.
Normal men have desires, lusts, hormones, and even genitals...and many normal men have masturbated a few times...but they do have the capacity to view women as
women. Fellow human beings with different sexual character and type.
If you are a porn and fantasy addict, then I'd like to suggest that you
probably are not like normal men in that respect. The normals are not 'tzaddikim' - plenty are (R"l) resho'im, actually, and by the same token I and other sex and lust addicts are not 'resho'im', either - plenty of us are probably tzaddikim, in some sense. Morality has little to do with addiction. It's manily about sanity. There is something nuts - just plain
nuts - about identifying women as a sexual thing. And I have that problem.
Acceptance is the key here,
not knowledge. I am not giving you a 'speech'. This is my problem, and may not be yours. I am trying to use G-d through recovery, I am sober one day at a time, and He is helping me get well one day at a time, too.
So. Pray for this woman. Humbly and sincerely ask Hashem to help her in all the troubles in her life. If she is human (and she is) she has serious troubles of some sort just as we do. Maybe health troubles, maybe a child of hers or a parent is ill, maybe she doesn't yet know that she has cancer, R"l. Daven for her health. Ask Him to help her find a simple
and real relationship with Him - isn't that what you want for your own children more than anything else in the world? Ask Him to help you be a blessing to her and to all the people you come into contact with. I daven this way in the middle of Sh'moneh Esrei, explicitly. I am speaking to G-d, He knows it all anyhow, right? With Him of course there is no need to use 'lashon nakiah' - He is not squeamish!!
It might sound not
tsniyusdik, but the fact is that
you have a relationship with this woman. It's not a sexual one, not a physical one, not even a
personal one...but an educational one. It is a
relationship. The way I see it, you can either pretend it is not there - and call that 'tzniyus' (I call it foolishness) - or you can accept Hashem's Will and work
with Him. Hashem is putting her into
your life and you into her life in some small - very small - way. And He does
everything for a reason. So now what to do?
Daven for her is one thing. Respect her is another: do not use her image for your self-pleasuring. That is not respect. Even if she does not dress tziyusdik - using her image because of
that is the excuse frum men always like to use. It's a lie and a cheap, dirty excuse for visual pillaging - first
put them down as immoral sluts, then
enjoy them like crazy, then
blame them for it! Yipee.
You are not like that, I know. So I suggest going in the diametrically opposite direction - and daven for them me'umka deliba. It is impossible to lust after someone we have a properly loving relationship with. This is part of the reason that the chachomim allowed yichud with one's sister or mother.
Real love and
real lust do not go together - even in marriage. When a kli is busy being poleit (giving=love) it is not being boleiyah (taking=lust). So daven for her, and learn how to care for strangers instead of lusting over them.
And do not be afraid to use her right name - if she is a real person, she has a real name....not a "username" (boy that was punny!
![](https://guardyoureyes.com/components/com_kunena/template/default/images/emoticons/new/wink.png)
)
Second, if you are married, then let your wife know about this lecture you go to and that a woman speaks there - no big stink. Just share the facts with her. No need to tell her that you are "worried about noticing her prettiness or whatever" - but just let her know you attend a lecture given by this woman. Later, let your wife know how much you love her, just stam.
The idea here is to grow more like the Gadol hador, Rav Elyashiv. To see and view women as human beings - women. Not mainly as people who have breasts and such.
BTW, just because of the
username, here is something I've never shared here - if it's of any use to anyone, great, and if not, enjoy just moving on
![](https://guardyoureyes.com/components/com_kunena/template/default/images/emoticons/new/smile.png)
:
I have met a few sex addicts who come to recovery themselves, after years working quite successfully as
professional addictions counselors, and want to just share from the field that it seems that the ones who decide to work the 12 steps usually have a harder time actually working the steps than many other people do. Sometimes it is just
too much education - so they assume that tons of knowledge makes
acceptance easier...and it doesn't. Sometimes it is just plain lack of humility, because after all, plenty guys - maybe even their sponsor! - could be
their clients....but that's irrelevant. And sometimes it is because they just don't attend meetings - opting for the "Home Study Course" and not coming to real meetings - and not getting a real flesh-and-blood sponsor if they
do come to meetings - because of the fear of losing their jobs or their reputation...nu. That's gotta be tough and I am glad I don't have that obstacle.