I resemble that remark...

Saw something nice on shabbos
thought i would share it with all of you guys
The Oznayim L'Torah asks why the pasuk reads ולא תתורו אחרי לבבכם ואחרי עיניכם
since the eyes see first and then the heart desires, the order should be flipped!
(he adds in parentheses: אין יצ"ה שולט אלא במה שעיניו רואות)
the answer he says is something emphasized here on the forum
when a person sees something its only with one eye
at that point it is relatively easier to get the improper thoughts out of your head
but if the heart desires (i.e. fantisizes thats my take)
then the person who is caught in the YH's trap
takes a second look...
with both eyes!
and then the body takes over and does the aveira.
so אחרי לבבכם comes first because that's when the real trouble starts
or as said here on the forum
the first look is an accident and not your fault
its the second look thats the problem
(again my take the exact wording escapes me)

all the best
and let's keep our eyes in their sockets where they belong, ok?

I saw this question answered a little differently in the name of the Belzer rebbe.
The reason that in posuk heart is mentioned first is because an eye only sees what the heart wants. If you don't have a desire in your heart your eyes won't see. For example, my little son doesn't notice a beer poster in the local grocery, because he doesn't care about a swimsuit model advertising alcohol. But I do, on both counts.
So we need to conquer the heart, I.e. the underlying issues, lust etc, and then shniras aynayim is going to be that much easier.

It seems poshut that the eyes notice what the heart desires. For example, there were many times when I noticed an outrageously shmutzy thing while driving somewhere and commented to my wife, "Hey did you see that?" Invariably she'd answer, "Nope...what did I miss?" When I described it to her, she'd ask me how come I notice these things yet she never sees them! I got a funny kind of radar. (I have since stopped telling my wife about this stuff, after noticing that that discussing them kept them in my mind for longer, so now I only tell my wife about them if they remain tempting to me and I do not surrender them.)

At first, I thought she was perhaps just unobservant, dumb, whatever. Then it dawned on me that we notice - and see - the things that we desire and so, are on our minds (like 'milsa d'adayta d'inish ramya alei' )

And on the other side of the coin, when I am sober and surrendered, seeing hookers, joggers, or dirty book stores and peep shows is not usually a 'trigger' for me. But If I look at them intentionally for any reason - they become triggers, and I sense the lust poison very clearly. It's terrible, so I do not typically look, b"H. Not because I am good, but because I am so sick that I cannot look at some of Hashem's people without having a lust problem. It's an allergy of mine.

When lust gets real estate in my head, life sucks. People - mostly my loved ones - become 'pains in the neck', my obligations - usually the most serious ones - become obstacles to 'my happiness', and the old insanity slowly, insidiously returns. (See the Chaza"l at the very end of this post! That's what they mean.)

So for me, an addict, if my heart is not right, it pre-programs my eyes for schmutz-alertness. Then when I see it, it has an effect.

Even if my heart is right, looking intentionally (due to some stupid cheshbon), messes up my heart and has an effect.

The only way out for me is to keep my eyes clear of potential schmutz, to admit that the schmutz is not the problem at all - it's not tum'ah, just people - and to give my personal allergy some healthy respect, and to close my eyes when i see it and feel I want to 'take a better look'. Cuz if I enjoy what is not mine, I lose peace of mind with what is mine. (kol haneheneh mimah sh'ein lo, af mah sheyesh lo, notlin heimenu! (Chaza"l somewere)

Thank you ober... and dov
for your insights
very good food for thought
ive got to chew it over again and again
till it becomes second nature

A very embarassing situation, allowed me to realize that our "sneak peaks" are quite obvious.
One of the ladies at work come to ask me a question. Now I know already that her tight fitting clothes are a real problem, so I've trained myself to keep my eyes focus above her neck when talking with her.
or so i thought! :-[
Well as she approached, she crossed her arms over her chest.
Did I look? I didnt think so!
But I guess that my eyes shifted a little and [b]its obvious to those who we are looking at![/b]
we arent fooling anybody but ourselves!

dov wrote on 17 Jun 2012 06:06:


There were 2 great tzadikim (true story), a father and his son, walking together in the street. At one point the son noticed an approaching image from the corner of his eye, and yelled to his father, "Don't look ahead! A woman is there!" It turned out to be a tree. And the father said to his son, "How interesting! When you see a tree from afar, you think it's a woman. And when I see a woman from afar I think it's a tree."

dov wrote on 17 Jun 2012 06:06:


סוטה ט:א - תנו רבנן סוטה נתנה עיניה במי שאינו ראוי לה מה שביקשה לא ניתן לה ומה שבידה נטלוהו ממנה שכל הנותן עיניו במה שאינו שלו מה שמבקש אין נותנין לו ומה שבידו נוטלין הימנו
(brought to you by my handy-dandy search engine)

MT

Oh and by the way, there is another important lesson brought (from the Chozeh of Lublin zy"a, I believe) on the possuk - velo sasuru acharei levavchem veacharei eineichem - you shall not stray "after" your hearts and "after" your eyes. This means that "after" you slipped and let your heart and/or eyes engage in lustful activity, do not think, "I may as well continue down this slippery slope". No way! Just make a U-turn and get back on track right away.

MT

This is becoming more interesting each day.
Here is what I saw in the name of HaRav HaKodoish from Kobrin:
When the Toiro says "achar" it means miyad, right away. "Acharei" means "after some time". So when it says acharei ayneichem it means we are not liable for the first look, but if we look again (acharei) that is transgressing on loi sosuru. Of course, this is for normal people.
For a sick man like me, even the first look is destructive and must be avoided.
BTW, I always think it's a woman, be it a tree or a car or a shadow on the wall. That's what makes me insane as opposed to just "red-blooded": I find a sexual angle and a sexualized image e v e r y w h e r e.

Boruch Hashem, Hashem helps us move forward out of compulsion and into real life. I can appreciate real, imperfect avodas Hashem even though I am not all better yet! I sincerely offer Hashem a sicko, and He gives me back a real, growing mentch.

Now that's a good deal. It's a good thing Hashem is not into retail... ;D

Zogt der Kotzker: "Emess meiEretz titzmoch" - Where (and when) the sheker is buried, that's where (and when) the emess grows. Thank G-d we can see some of our sheker, admit it to others, to ourselves and to Hashem, and bury it. What grows is so beautiful.

obormottel wrote on 19 Jun 2012 21:52:

The Rorschach test! Me too!

Careful ET, we may just have to call out the psychologists on you.

It's amazing how you can hear an idea thrown around here a million times and it doesnt sink in.
and you're wondering how can they do that?
and then all of a sudden... boom!
It happens for you!
A gift from shamayim!

Translation:
For the longest time, I would see a lady and turn my eyes away b4 looking again
and my blood would boil
and I would have to really fight myself not to look
and then the thoughts would start going thru my head...
"WHY IS THIS SO DIFFICULT !?!?
WHY DO I HAVE TO SUFFER LIKE THIS ?!?!"
and then today...
out of the blue...
It clicked that by not looking I was connecting to HKBH
I know its not a chiddush
but for the longest time I was getting down on myself for having to deal with this.
and i couldnt undertand what you guys were talking about
and it suddenly became clear
Instead of knocking myself down each time for thinking about it
I can lift myself up by appreciating the fact that I didnt look again
and i, little i, connected with HKBH, BIG H BIG K BIG B BIG H,
8)
cant explain what changed or how it happened
it just did
sometimes it just takes a while for the truth to penetrate my thick skull.

Heard something yesterday that blew my mind.
Apparently Rav Chaim Vital says that the koach of our eyes
is so strong that it takes ownership, in a sense, of whatever we see.
so by looking at women, we are essentially taking them as our own.
Well if she's married, you're in trouble.
but even if she isn't married
you end up messing up her life
because she's walking around with your eyes claiming her
and she cant get her shidduch!
now the person speaking was telling ladies / girls
to beware of how they dress
because they may be causing men to look at them
and consequently messing themselves up
because there are tons of eyes that "own" them
and they cant get their bashert.
food for thought
the "simple" look isnt so simple after all !

anyhow if anyone can find me the source for this, i would greatly appreciate it.

The mekubal Rav Yekusiel Fish shlita writes something similar. He says that a man gets shefa from shomayim for himself and for his wife and he passes his wife's shefa to her. If Reuven thinks about Shimon's wife, part of Mrs Shimon's shefa is diverted from Shimon and given to Reuven who passes it on to his wife. So both women lose out: Mrs Shimon is deprived of her shefa (her own fault if she dresses provocatively) and Mrs Reuven gets the wrong shefa. Both women will become emotionally disturbed by this without knowing why.