Hi everyone,

I am still clean. I am having some trouble with bad thoughts and lying on my front (a trigger for me), but I am working on them. I wish you all a happy, clean day!

--some_guy/Elias/Eliyahu

Hi everyone,

I had another clean day. I always feel better when I stay clean. Don't worry, I am not getting so happy that I will get depressed if I fall. On another note, I have joined a group. I think the idea of having to answer to people will really help. I maybe now I can get past 1 week clean.

--some_guy/Elias/Elihayu

I forgot to take my medication this weekend and fell a lot. I was really depressed and worried about the vow I made. I owe about $50 to charity and need to say 90 tehillim, not counting the ones added because I am in a group. You could say that the punishment don't ably because without my medicine I had no chance. But then its still my fault because I forgot to take them. I am not really sure what to do.

--some_guy/Elias/Eliyahu

Eliyahu:

we should pick a time to chat, I would very much like tto"speak" with you and get to know you--I just finished public school.

ANYWAY--WORRY ABOUT THE CHESHBONOS IN A WEEK OR SO. Until then, thinking about it is counterproductive.

some_guy wrote:


I can't decide for you, but in my book, things that happen because of situations beyond my control, including forgetfulness, are exempt.

MT

Dear Elias,

If you do not make good on this shvuah by keeping the 'punishments', then shvuos will not help you the next time you make one.

I would not play with shvuos in the first place, personally. But I consider it far more important that you keep shvuos effective as a tool for your sobriety - even more than that you keep your shvuoh for the sin of shvuas shov.

So I hope you protect the power of your shvuos by making 100% good on this one. Once you let them slip by, you have lost this tool. For you will let them slip by more and more till they mean absolutely nothing, and will not help you at all any more.

BTW, whatever happened with your pin-sticking and bleeding fingernails idea? Did you can it? (I hope you did)

Dov the last line made me laugh out loud and my co-workers in the office wanted me to tell them what was so funny.
I was almost caught on GYE!!!

Dov wrote:


Respectfully disagree. This is not kiddush hachodesh where we say "atem afilu shogagim". Exempting such actions that are not under our control does not lessen the effectiveness of shvuos that were deliberately transgressed. (...works for me.)

MT

Hello everyone,

I feel better now. I will be sure to follow my promise from now on. And if I forget to take my medicine, the punishments are cut in half. Anyway, I have been feeling better. I am much less depressed. I think that its a good thing that I can stay positive after a fall.

--some_guy/Elias/Eliyahu

P.S. Dov, I did annul that vow about pricking my fingers.

Machshovo Tova wrote:


OK. Are you saying that if a person makes shvuos and does not keep the 'punishments' he agreed to do when he doesn't keep the shvuoh, that it will not weaken the tool and eventually wear away at it till it is just a joke? I'm trying to understand what u r saying here.

Rabbosai, let's make a pshara because there have been several machlokesim between MT and Dov, but it is l'shem shamayim so it is all good.

I think in principle it is important to keep the shvuos, but if they become too much of a source of anxiety or if they become counterproductive, it is a good idea to say "I will observe those consequences, but in a month's time" or something.

Also, as far as the meds go, it's kind of like me saying I must pay $50 to tzedaka for having a wet dream. Could I have prevented it? I don't really know how, but it's possible that thoughts during the day or foods I ate caused it. Is it fair to call that a fall? No.

Dov wrote:


No. I am saying that what works for me is that when I make a vow, it is lechatchilah with the understanding that it only applies if I deliberately transgress. It does not apply if I was an 'oneis' (forced by external causes) or 'shogeig' (forced by forgetfulness). But when I transgress deliberately, there's no ifs and buts - I must pay up. BTW, my vows over the decades have costed me tens of thousands of dollars, many many fasts, and much mch more. But that was all before GYE. Now B"H with the 'new design for living' I can work all day on a PC without proper filter (goyishe employer), without ever slipping or sipping anything remotely related to lust.

Hodu LaHashem ki tov!

MT

MT - then we agree 100%. If you look at my original post you will see that all I was talking about was being lax in the payment of the punishment of breaking the shevuaoh.

I don't get how you thought that I was referring to being lax in defining whether it was a violation of the shevuoh or not. That was not the issue I was dealing with alt all, amigo. You are making distinctions regarding whether oneis exists in defining a violation of the shevuoh - fine. I have never even given that any thought. My point was about paying up vs not really paying up, that's all (I swear...not!).

All good?

Yes all good - as I said previously - Hodu LaHashem ki tov!

MT

I fell last night and this morning. I am going to say 20 tehillim after I am done here. I feel a little down, but I would not call it depressed.

--some_guy/Elias/Eliyahu