A question for all of you.....I am asking this because it happened to me and I want to hear feedback, not because I am just thinking too much about the past.

Here I was on Friday night, alone in my room. No images, no people, no outside triggers, etc. and for whatever reason I fell. Should I be more upset that there was nothing to instigate, if you will, my taivos and yet I still fell? I mean, my usual triggers are not necessarily internet related, but somehow my insides tell me that it's easier to fight if there are no external triggers. I'm really hurt that even after signing up for the 90 day chart, and realizing that there are others who have struggled mightily in this area, read through chizuk emails, attitudes, the Kosher Aisle songs etc. it's as if nothing changed (Which I KNOW is not true. And I know I'm planting the seeds to growth and recovery, and that even a normal planted seed needs to break down before sprouting and becoming a plant. But, c'mon, man! Enough is enough.

I got an aliyah today in shul and did some other shul stuff that people were saying Yasher Koach a million times over and I wanted to dig myself in a hole and cry. I even made it my business to go to a hilchos nidda Shovivim course refresher to infuse my life with kedusha. And Arghhhhhh! On Shovivim no less! I know I'm going to get an earful from either Dov or one of his blessed "cronnies"  , but I still need to vent, so that's why I'm writing. Thanks in advance.....

RELAX BREATHE EXERCISE im a perfectionist too and these things help me.


TOFASTO MERUBA LO TOFASTO TOFASTO MUET TOFASTO



HATORAH LO NITNAH L'MALACHEI HASHORES


alei shur "tofasto meruba usid lehisya'esh mikol avoda


These concepts help me greatly i wrote them down and keep the paper in my pocket.Think small in the short term (in the long term your goal is huge)but in the short term in order to get to your goal you need to do davka small things the gedolei mussar of today say if you want to work on chessed you do 3 acts a day and then you will ingrain that inside and so to here in rgard to lust slowly but surely (you definitely need too not do anything bad and go all the way) but in the concepts we learn here will take time and untill than what Hashem wants is the fight the getting baak up Life is not about falling its about getting up
      good luck keep strong and daven Shalom holy brother

A heartfelt thank you, emunah.

What do you want from all this? It's good to have some idea, though not too detailed.

What framework are you developing in order to bring some real change into your life? Any new real friends (besides virtual ones who don't know you and do not have any real shaychus to you beyond these posts)? How much time are you actually spending in your day today in order to learn something new about recovery?

Are the steps you are taking all basically comfortable? If so, they are a waste, for sure. Comfort is a sure sign of the fox watching the hen house.

Hatzlocha. It's not that much fun, but it beats masturbating my life away, hands down!

I'll tell you, I just read Attitudes # 17 (What's it doing all the way down at number 17 for?!!?!?!?!) and that's what I needed to see. That there is a genuine spiritual energy inside all of us, that may just be stronger than other people's and we have to channel it to good. I see in myself that there is so much good that I have achieved b'siyata d'Shmaya, but yet if I don't do more I may stray towards the רע .

To be honest, Dov, to make things really uncomfortable I would like to find a friend with similar hashkafos and "spiritual energy", if you will, but it seems like all the good options are already well along their path to recovery (Not to chas v'Shalom put anyone else down AT ALL). Is it wrong to think that I need more of a mentor type (i.e Dov, TehillimZugger, gibbor120, Gevurah, et al.)? Is that going too comfortable? Or based on my inner feelings is it more of a realistic avenue for change and recovery?

I'm not getting you yet, NeiroYair. You are saying that what would be uncomfortable would be getting a buddy who is not too 'far along' in recovery from this problem, right? But getting a mentor who is 'far along' would be more comfortable? If that's what you mean, then fine but I don't yet understand what you mean by 'uncomfortable'.

What I mean by 'comfortable' is doing the sometimes scary, sometimes outlandish things that led and continue to lead other people with your problem to actually stay clean and get better. There are plenty folks (including rabbonim) who will talk the talk and give insipring, even Torah-based mussar and chassidus his'orerus and advice - but were on their knees only a week ago masturbating to their own sweet porn-goddess. Hey, I have been there, too, and could be right back out there living the double-life again today, if not for Hashem's Chessed.

Taking real action steps to live differently - not making promises or plans or hachlotos. But taking actions of recovery today, only for today's recovery. Leaving the rest - including tomorrow's recovery - to G-d, 100%.

Am I fuzzy here, or clear, or something else?

Thanks for sharing your stuff in any case,

- Dov

First off, I don't want people to think that I am a Rabbi or anything. I'm a working, Torah Jew with dreams of making a difference to a specific Jewish community somewhere or better yet to the Jewish nation as a whole (The perfectionist has spoken.....again :  ) I have so much to offer, from life experiences, to countless hours spent "b'hisbodidus"- I think it's called- and learning mussar and just want to unlock that potential further and take it up a couple notches, but have this "black cloud" following me....i.e the sitra achra and his machinations.

Secondly, you were correct in your interpretation of my words---> I feel like a better option for me would be to talk with someone who has "been there and done that" already, but am afraid, and that's why I'm asking your advice, that that might be my Yetzer trying to take the easy road out. I've had so many chavrusahs that fizzled out in my yeshiva years that I guess I'm just expecting the worst. PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong.

Also, all the "scary and outlandish" ideas that you refer to conflict with my crazy schedule (of trying to keep busy so I DON'T fall!) - All the call groups are either during work hours (I don't get a lunch hour) or at night (when I'm at yeshiva struggling with yet another chavrusah or just struggling to understand gemarah....or to stay awake :o) 

Any SA groups would probably not be in my neighborhood and if they were I would feel very uneasy (dare I say "uncomfortable"  ) to be a white shirted, velvet yarmulka wearing Jew.

As you can tell, I'm a thought out person who has been exhaustively searching and trying, as are many people here. I'd like to say I will do whatever it takes, but I need hadracha and am ready, willing, and able to subordinate myself to join over to the side of recovery and be a TRUE eved Hashem, as I have yearned for for so long. With no "black clouds". I WANT TO BE A BA'AL TESHUVA. ENOUGH WITH BEING A BA'AL TAIVA!

OK, so I want to ask you - not accuse you - in what respect are you ready to do whatever it takes and truly sick and tired of living the way you are - if the very things you may need to do, turn out to be 'too inconvenient' for you?

Being ready to go to any lengths, means a lot of things, and none of them are convenient. If your schedule does not fit for you to get what you say you want, then it is plain that what you want is just not important enough, yet.

This is not an accusation. I am observing and relating, for I do understand the struggle as do many here.

Now, I do not know what you are actually doing that makes you so upset and convinces you that you are living the life of a ba'al tayvoh, because you have not detailed it yet. You wrote that you "already lost the battle," that you liked looking at pornography and got caught in it after seeing that your father had used it...but you have not explained what that means. What do you actually do when you mess up? How often do you mess up? And what happens next? Is there a cycle? Is it repetitive? Has it been getting better over the past year or two - or is it getting worse? Does it directly affect how you treat your wife? Is sex with the wife directly affected by it?

None of these things are big evils, secrets, or taboo. For crying out loud, this is a totally anonymous forum. Nobody will figure out who you are and 'out' you! What is holding you back from using this forum to follow R Meilech's advice (#13 in the tzet'l koton) where he says to detail all the emess about all your shameful tayvos and failures with a safe, trusted friend "without holding back a single detail"?

Use it. We are here. Do not - please, please, do not use your wife for that purpose. It is a gave error for these reasons:

1- she cannot understand it, really, though she may say she can...she just so badly wants to, but it perplexes and pains her with no refu'ah;
2- she cannot share back any personal experience at all, for her feminine sexuality is obviously different;
3- she is too close and personally affected to you to be objective and helpful;
4- it is excruciating and damaging to her - so it is cruel;
5- it is often the secret desire and hope of a husband to tell his wife all about his struggles in order to motivate her - either with fear, or with telling her dirty stuff - to make her more sexually available to him.

Yes, telling the wife the truth is very, very important. But the timing here is off. Telling the entire truth about us to safe men - men who struggle with it too - men who are not invested in us by marriage - men who understand the struggle, the pain, and are learning to be free...that must come first.

You can call it the sitra achara, but I call living a double life a mental illness. If you are living a double life and you really can't stand it - yet you have been doing it for years, I'd suggest that you are not 'bad', but sick. I also suggest that if what you do is just bad, then it is isura. OK, not an addiction, not messing up your life, not that serious....that's OK. It's normal. And you need to come off your high horse, get on the ground, realize that the Torah  was not given to malochei hashoreis, and grow in your mediocrity instead of killing yourself with perfectionism. It is a thing that good people can teach you if you are willing to stoop, a bit. But that has nothing to do with addiction and the recovery that I am familiar with.

But if it is messing up your life and cannot continue any more, then it is an addiction. Then playing with porn or masturbation is not isura, but sakanto. And sakanto chamiro me'isurah. Chaza"l apparently take an addiction - in this case expressed by sexual perversion and dependence - more seriously than they take a "yetzer horah".

If the latter is what's going on with you, then there is a tried and tested program available. And as with any mental illness or disease, goyim can teach you and help you out just as well as Yidden can. Of course, that will take a lot more stooping and humility. Or, a lot more humiliation. If we are addicts, then that is the only choice.

Hatzlocha

NeiroYair wrote on 22 Jan 2012 15:05:


If I understood correctly, you're saying that you don't want a chaver but a mentor, and i'm a mentor.
I got news for you my friend, if you define mentor-chaver based upon how far into recovery we are...
I'M ONLY ON MY FIFTH DAY so...

TehillimZugger wrote on 23 Jan 2012 11:20:


I love this guy!!!  :o

I'm only on my first, so you're worlds above me, TZuggs (There, I compromised!).

I'm going to cry! My emotional states are too unstable. Even when I try to "speak my mind" I'm unclear and feel so alone!

This is from Attitudes # 18 : How does one become a different person? By working diligently on improving one’s character
traits. Learning how to manage anger, to rid oneself of resentments, to overcome hate, to be
humble, to be considerate of others, to be absolutely honest in all one’s affairs, to admit being
wrong, to overcome envy, to be diligent and overcome procrastination.

My answer: I HAVE SPENT THE WHOLE LAST 11 or SO YEARS OF MY LIFE WORKING ON THESE THINGS ONE BY ONE BY ONE. And my problem continues on and on and on. You want to know what that 'problem' is?! I......I.......I.....masturbate. There! I said it. Talk about uncomfortable and always speaking with a sensitive tongue like is portrayed in the Torah. But I feel like "es la'asos LaHashem, heifeeru Torasecha." Not on any "porn goddess" as you called it, Dov. On wanting to connect with someone. On wanting to feel loved and to give love in all senses of the word and to transpose that love into a bond to make the world a better place and to make G-d known to all. On wanting to feel pleasure in connecting with G-d and sneaking in my own physical pleasure for all my valiant efforts in trying to serve Him (after struggling to see results).

I had my three to five websites that I would visit and revisit (the ones that had updated pictures so I wouldn't have to go anywhere else.) I was too afraid and saddened to let it expand past that.  But those were just triggers. The internet only "helped" my problem. I knew that if I tried I could get anyone I wanted. I am not fantasizing over specific people. All I need is a body without the face. I never tried to focus too long on anyone's face because I knew what it could ingrain on my mind. And I feel like I am alone in this as well, for who else would think like me? Who else would care so much about what G-d or other people would say TO THE EXTENT THAT I DO?

I would like to have a face to face meeting with someone here. My name is too unique to think that I would be anonymous in these forums. I am sick and tired of falling prey to my emotions. Yes, I want to change. If I want to realize more of my potential I HAVE to change. I do everything I think is in my power to change my thoughts, speech, and actions to create fences and overcome this addiction. You want to tell me I don't have an addiction? That's your expert opinion. All I know is that I live with myself 25/8  and my thoughts are forever on the female form and personality. No matter what I do, it never seems to be enough. I was sky high yesterday and now I'm a wreck. Have I grown? Yes! And I refuse to let the Yetzer Hara take all my efforts away from me through feeling regret. But I am hurting because my service is not complete.

So many people like me and call me a happy person. I do that because "adam nif'al l'fi pe'ulaso". But it doesn't feel real because I succumb to the curves of the female form and the curves, twists, and turns of the emotional roller coaster, the likes of which would be deemed too dangerous even by Six Flags standards!

I want to live the life I know I can live, but am too haunted and scared to trust my decision making which has failed me time and time again. Part of the issue is I WANT to share my problems with someone. Enough of this anonymity. "Ein kol chadash tachas ha'shamesh". We all have the proverbial skeletons in the closet. But, something is holding me back from "spilling the beans". I can't explain it. It pains me to think about what's holding me back, because I always draw a blank. Hours upon hours of cumulative thought.....and I draw a blank.

And that's also why I involved my wife. Right after we were married, you're right, I did tell her to sort of imply that I needed her often. But, I and we are beyond that. I have told her in terms of an addiction and a struggle and a willingness and yearning to change. I gave her an analogy that helped paint a better picture of what I'm going through. Of course I did it tactfully, but I couldn't live with myself had I kept it a secret from the person most dear to my heart. And I'm glad I did  because secrets in a marriage are the most detrimental thing I can think of. But this is not the point right now. I am the point right now. And that's why I'm calling on you for help.

dov wrote on 23 Jan 2012 14:09:

don't love me too much
i fell yesterday again, so if you keep on loving me when i fall, i'm afraid i'll keep on falling


NEIRO
let me just tell you that i totally identify with what you're writing, as a matter of fact I never felt so understood before.
I'm ready to exchange numbers
but if you want me to be the mentor you have to remember that i'm younger than you  ???

If my loving you helps you fall, then my hating you will make you fall even more. But neither are really true, so quit pushing away love.

Being an emotional mess comes along as part of this addiction.  I identify completely.  At one point Guard dubbed me with a picture of a tidal wave as my Avatar (back in the days when Guard was more intimately involved in the forum) because of all the ups and downs I talked about (and keep talking about).

This desparation to have a fake relationship, and pursuit of fantasies (if only in my head and on the screen) was driving my true emotions ever more inside.

I used to think I was some sort of psychological genius because I "understood myself" so well.  This is a feeling I also pick up about you through your posts, Neiro.  I have come to learn that, in fact, this was a sign of my sickness--living forever in my head and unable to relate to real people on a level of who I really am; intellectually AND emotionally.

I joined GYE nearly 3 years ago, and joined live SA groups about 7 months ago.  I have gained, through recovery, tools which have helped me cope with my emotions with a greater degree of calm and maturity, and I have grown also in my ability to relate to other people.

--Elyah

Dov, great answer and so true! We all need a little love. As in pirkei avos, which says that anyone who people like, Hakadosh Baruch Hu "likes" and is happy with, as well.

TZuggs, I'm ready to stoop. I don't discriminate for yarmulka type, affilaition, etc. so why should age be a factor.... If you would only know what I learn from the five year olds I work with!......

Chochom Eye.non b'rosho! K'shmo kein hu!............So, what's my excuse?! 
How difficult was your decision to join a SA group? I can't comprehend, unless forced by others, how someone could actively decide to join. It's beyond me. Please enlighten me, as my "neiroyair" has been reduced to ambers....

Also, a BIG yasher koach to all those who sent me personal messages. Now I have to sift through who I'd like to call, but that is a good problem to have, B"H.