Thank you, and I'm glad you liked it! 

YMG wrote on 01 Aug 2011 14:20:


YMG, seeing that a) you don't like black jellybeans and b) you know how to pick a good calvin and hobbes (see here www.guardyoureyes.org/forum/index.php?topic=3454.msg101301#msg101301), I can't not like you.  I do, however, question your philosphy on addiction.

YMG wrote on 01 Aug 2011 16:07:


It is one thing to recognize that Hashem can heal me.  It is another to say that because of that I am not going to seek out help from others in staying sober.  I would venture to say that you engaged in addictive conduct for way longer than you have been sober.  And that in the past you had resolved to stop, maybe even stopped for a period of time and then restarted.  Knowing that, what is the harm of having an accountability partner who can help you in the struggle and keep you in check when those inevitable "lust attacks and urges" approach.  Calling on an accountability partner is not a contradiction to bitachon in Hashem.  The only "downside" I can see with such an approach is that it forces us to admit publicly (or at least to another person) that maybe we just aren't as great as the world holds us out to be.

I likewise fail to understand what can be wrong with passing "on the message" to others.  But, if you have a method that works for you I am happy for you and I wish you continued Hatzlacha.

Each of us is different, and has a different YH and a different level of addiction. Each of us needs different methods to overcome our problems. Nobody is saying "do what I did or you will not succeed".  But by sharing what works for us, we can provide Chizuk for each other, and also practical ideas that others may adopt as part of their personal strategy. That's why we are all here.

Gevura!

P.S. Hello my name is Gevura and I am addicted to black jelly beans......

ur-a-jew wrote on 01 Aug 2011 19:23:


To clarify:

Firstly, there is a difference in involving others in your recovery, as in listening to their attitudes and what's worked for them, then relying on them. When it comes to relying on them, we're told - אל תבטחו בנדיבים בבן אדם שאין לו תשועה.  Relying on people sometimes means,  that not only can't they help you, but they also can't help themselves! Listening to other people and hearing from them can be very helpful in knowing what to expect from yourself in your recovery. Involving others in your recovery, relying on them as "support", in my case (and I speak for myself here) that's only led to ultimate disaster. My personal guidelines are, "share attitude, but rely only on Hashem."

Secondly, I don't think accountability partners - in general - are such a simple subject. Here's a quote from the Rambam's Hilchois Teshuva (2:5):



It's plain tricky. That's just my opinion.

Thirdly, "passing on the message to others" is a wonderful thing, as well as a great chesed! I was talking about one's own recovery being based on it, where I said in my situation, that this is not the case.

Gevura ShebYesod wrote on 01 Aug 2011 19:52:


Ditto.

sounds like it will be a lively debate

here are some refreshments

Why a debate?

Everyone can eat their beans in peace.  :D

http://www.guardyoureyes.org/forum/index.php?topic=1701.msg112690

YMG wrote on 01 Aug 2011 20:01:


Yes, life is tricky, but the Rambam and an accountability partner are no סתירה to each other.  When I reach out to an accountability partner to help me overcome a lust attack that's not about teshuva it's about not sinning in the first place.  It is way before teshuva.

I can't discuss accountability and if that's a necessary part of your breaking free.

I don't know you/your recovery, and I don't know what accountability's about.

I never had an accountability partner, and I know nothing about how your partner's able to help you.

It's my attitude you addressed - so that's what you got!

Hey ur-a-jew, "Keep coming back!" - AA : :D

The rambam clearly states being misvadeh to a rabim. it doesn't say don't talk to a yochid. The mishna in avos says "asey l'cha rav, k'ney l'cha chaver" the purpose of this is for spiritual growth.reb elimelech of lizensk in tzetel koton clearly states to discuss your shortcomings with someone every day.

I don't want to burst anyone's bubble here.

YMG, I'm really happy for you to hear that you are cured.

To add a different perspective, however, I would like to add the following:

The Big Book, the main text of AA, describes various types of drinkers.

The social drinker, the periodic drinker, and even the heavy drinker.  Even the heavy drinker is not necessarily an addict and, if he applies enough will power, he can stop his hazardous behavior all on his own, or with some outside help, but then it's history.

The addict is someone who is out of control.  The addict is someone who's mind, body, and spirit are not quite like other people's and, for whatever reason, never will be again.  Whenever the urge for drinking, or for lust, comes along, it is an insatiable urge.  For such a condition, there is recovery, there are steps to take to keep free of the shakles of the addiction, but it never quite goes away.

I say this because, whatever steps you took, and whatever tools worked for you, may also work for others.  But, for someone who is not just a light luster, or even a heavy drinker while not an addict (which is possible, and may be your case), such steps may help a little bit in the short-term, but will not be sufficient for long-term recovery.  It may not be the ultimate cure, as it was for you.

--Elyah

MAALIN BAKODESH wrote on 02 Aug 2011 12:21:


You didn't get my point. Perhaps, because I myself - trying to avoid this thread turning into a debate - didn't outrightly say anything other than that in my opinion, "it's tricky", and that I don't do it.

I therefore see no reason why anyone should feel the need to defend themselves and their opinions.

But if you would like to discuss this, you're welcome to take this over to private messages - where I'd gladly talk to you about what it says in the Rambam, the Minshna, and in Tzetel Koton.

I don't bite. 

Eye.nonymous wrote on 02 Aug 2011 12:49:


It's so interesting that you say this.

That's because when I read The Big Book, it told me that if I want recovery, I should seek out the G-d of my understanding.

So off I went to the beis medrash to learn about my G-d in the Torah... 

And here's what I learned:

The G-d of the yidden, and the G-d of the Torah - is capable of anything at all!

Nothing happens till the He gets involved.

And when He gets involved, there's no limit to what's possible!

P.S: My G-d is for everyone.

P.P.S: So is Torah. 

P.P.P.S: Don't worry. Bubble's not burst.

Once on the "G-d of my understanding/Higher Power" topic though...

Remember that quote from Calvin and Hobbes, "You know, Hobbes, some days even my lucky rocketship underpants don't help."?

I once read a great article on the Big Book (based on the chapter called "We Agnostics") titled, "Can my Higher Power be a doorknob?" and figured, hey - Calvin has his special underpants that are keeping him clean, so why not!

Sounds like this sobriety/addiction stuff can be tons of fun! 

... just playin wid ya, man...

And thanks for sharing your perspective!