YMG wrote on 29 Jul 2011 17:24:


First things first.  If you don't like black jellybeans that already shows that you are normal and okay in my book.  Hashem certainly does perform miracles, because it is a miracle that anyone likes black jellybeans.

Second, there is nothing wrong with what you wrote.  If anything I would say we are just jealous in a good way.  Just curious how long has it been since you've been "cured"?

ZemirosShabbos wrote on 29 Jul 2011 17:48:


Thank you, and you too - have a good Shabbos!

Wait a minute, are you saying I'm not normal?

ummm...

Nevermind.... 

ur-a-jew wrote on 29 Jul 2011 17:49:


I've been clean and sober for nearly 220 days; no slips or falls - and I've seen outright miracles! In all honesty though, I can't say that I felt normal right away when I made my commitment to break free. It took some real time. Even 90 days didn't do it for me.

Getting off the stuff did help a lot, but it's not for that alone that I feel this way today. It's only real siyata dishmaya that led me here!

It all came when I realized that we're completely powerless in all our ways (not just in not lusting) - and that "we can't even twirl our finger down here below without it being declared up above" (See Gemara Chulin 7b based on Tehillim 37:23), and that Hashem is all powerful in all ways (not just in helping us be "sober addicts" - but also) that he creates nature and He has the power to change it! (See the Rabbeinu Yona as brought in the Kad Kemach's erech Bitachon).

Basically - (forget about lusting...) I can't put my shoes on (without Hashem's help)! And Hashem, He can split the sea!

So I learned not to care about what other's said/say I can and can't do. My Hashem can do anything, and he's stronger than the "Once an addict, always an addict!" - natural way of things!

If you send me a private message I may be willing to share with you part of my story.

Gevura ShebYesod wrote on 29 Jul 2011 22:40:


I'm saying that only you would truly know if you're considered healthy or sick, and no matter how much others would like to pontificate otherwise, they do not know you, and they do not know the specific details surrounding your situation and struggle.

I'm also saying, that if you're one who does indeed consider yourself sick at the moment, you too can connect to Hashem who has the power to restore you back to good health.

... and why ask for anything less?

Super simple, that's:

You can't.

He can.

Connect to Him.

And you can do anything!

P.S: Hello my name is YMG and I don't like black jelly beans... 

ZemirosShabbos wrote on 29 Jul 2011 17:10:


Just out of curiosity, who is Yisrael Dagan?

1) The fact that we are powerless in ALL things is 100% true. However, real "truth" is easy to say but hard to truly feel. That's why most Yidden unfortunately don't learn to depend on Hashem with complete bitachon, even though they "say" with their mouths that "Hashem controls everything". However, when it comes to lust, an addict truly FEELS his powerlessness, and therefore when he says it, you can believe that he is speaking the "truth" in his heart. And when he gets desperate, he knows he has no choice but to let Hashem do miracles for him in THIS area... And the beauty of that is, that as he grows in his dependency and connection to Hashem in THIS area, he starts to feel it in all other areas as well... Slowly, he comes to truly "feel" what you said, that we are really powerless in ALL areas and that Hashem can do ANYTHING. And that is how the addiction can be a blessing in disguise.

2) The fact that Hashem can do anything is also 100% true. However, as much as Hashem CAN cure diabetes, cancer, broken legs, allergies, etc.. unfortunately for reasons known only to Him, He doesn't always do it. So as much as we may ask him to completely cure our addiction, He may or may not agree. If He does, as you claim He did in your case, that is a truly wonderful miracle! If He doesn't, as in the case of many others, He may still choose to HELP the sick person stay sober. That is ALSO a miracle. And in most cases of addiction, this is the more "common" miracle. And just as Hashem makes a miracle for a diabetic that takes his insulin, so too Hashem helps an addict that takes HIS medicine. What is his medicine? It's largely about learning how to LET HASHEM HELP US and LEARNING TO TRUST IN HIM to help usm. When we do actions to reinforce this emunah and start to live closer to Hashem, we open ourselves up to the miracle of sobriety...

"2b healed or not 2b healed?" That is the question. And in each case, Hashem decides

Tried-123 wrote on 01 Aug 2011 04:45:


He's a musician and a singer. Breslover guy.

Math problems. Y'gotta love it!  :D

This, by far, is my absolute favorite though!

Hello YMG and welcome to the forum!

Cured  vs  an addict in recovery (but always an addict)

For an ehrlicha yid, what's the nafka mina (practical difference)?

If an addict, I know I can't take that first drink, meaning I can't gaze at a woman in the street (or in the newspaper ads, etc.), I have to shoo away lustful thoughts, I can't look at shmutz on the internet, I can't mas........

As an ehrlicha yid, I have the exact same restrictions.

As either, I can have loving, lustful encounters with my wife and it doesn't upset the apple cart.

So what's the nafka mina?

Truth is, with the attitude that my sobriety is a daily gift, rather than a once-and-for-all cure, I remain more vigilant.  Because I fear that if I take that drink, I will quickly fall into old habits and will have to claw my way out, which was miserable.  I was a lust addict for over 30 years, and I've been clean for 2-1/3 years, ever since discovering this life-changing site.  But as you know, the beginning is murder, and I don't ever want to go through it again.  So I have no intention of testing to see if I'm cured by sneaking a quick aveira.  I'm happy to be clean and focusing my energies on other important areas of life.

So what's the nafka mina?

BTW, I don't care for jellybeans, but I never met a cookie I didn't like!  Good to have you with us!

Alex

Hi alexeliezer, and thank you for the welcome!

The practical difference, is that in my case, staying off the stuff doesn't include accountability partners, therapy, or to forever attend (live) meetings. If I don't "pass on the message" to others with others I don't worry that I'll slip because of a lacking in my recovery. I also retain my anonymity, and I've never stepped out into the open.

For me - as a yid - my sobriety comes only from my making the One True G-d of the Torah #1 in my sobriety. When He's my #1, then I can feel comfortable and safe. I'm at ease that I'm in good hands and I don't worry about my next urge, if it will come, when it will come, and how I'll overcome it. And when it comes, if it comes, I also try not to get nervous or anxious. I know that Hashem will help - and He does! Basically; bitochoin! (See Chovos Halevovois Shaar Habitochoin)

I've never really had the attitude that Hashem will help me be sober only if I do [fill in the blank with [i]whatever [/i] recovery steps are popular out there]. All Hashem wants to see is real genuine effort and an earnest attempt. And when we do our part - our חודו של מחט - then Hashem will do the rest to make that into a פתחו של אולם! (See the hakdoma to Sefer Chareidim)

On the other hand, you're right, and you make a good point: we both have the same restrictions, and like anyone with a y"h, we both need to sharpen our saw from time to time. Fighting our egos as well as our complacency is part of that!

I humbly share my personal experience and what works for me for others to benefit from it.

YMG wrote on 01 Aug 2011 16:07:


I haven't done any of that stuff either.  I've recovered just with the help of the RBSO (and Reb Guard). There are many others on this site who have done the same.
But if I were to find myself slipping and falling repeatedly, I would do whatever it takes.  Which for me amounts to another motivation not to slip.

I have shared a detailed account of the approach that worked so well for me.  Perhaps when you have time you can share with the kehilla some specifics of yours.  It's 12-steppy to help others, but it's also Jewish.

alexeliezer wrote on 01 Aug 2011 16:57:


Taking it from the top; the first thing that got me set on my path and continues to fuel my recovery is this. I learned it in Tanya (it's the first few lines in the beginning of chapter 14), and coming from a place where all I heard is "you can't!, you can't!" - this gave me tremendous support that "I can do this!" and that I can succeed!

This is the text: I was going to bold the parts that I want to stress, but the whole thing (every word) should be emphasized. So, here:



And a few points I personalized;

- That anyone can be a Beinoni [a person who is in control of his thought speech and action and subjugates it to G-d] no matter the person, and no matter how "addicted" he is. It's very doable.

- That everyone should make an attempt at being a Beinoni.

- That being a Beinoi is a thing in the present - and that with practice, a person can be a Beinoni even for just a portion of his day.

- That being a Beinoni has nothing to do with a person's desire for lust, and that it only has to do with what's actually expressed in his thought, speech, and action.

- That a Beinoni still gets lust attacks and urges, and that's alright.

- That everyone has the יכולת, רשות and בחירה at any given moment, to take charge of his thought, speech, and action, and to think holy thoughts, even int he face of being bombarded with evil thoughts.

Knowing "that" I can and "how" I can - and knowing that the Torah was backing me and supporting me - that itself made the struggle much easier. Then I begain working on internalizing these few lines (coupled with some other chapters) and putting them to practice.

I hope this helps.

Shkoiach!
That's a very inspiring and empowering shtikl Tanya.
At the end of the day, overcoming this is a combination of turning the struggle/illness over to Hashem, and our hishtadlus (raw self control).
Without either, we're doomed.
With both, the sky opens up...